Autism vs Vaccines - Another Myth

Let the debates begin.

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Postby Wenceslas » March 25th, 2008, 4:22 am

UPDATE: Dr. George Milonas emails:

In my office, it’s only the marginally educated white yuppies that are refusing vaccines. This is a trend seen across the country. They go on ridiculous websites where they are absolutely convinced that thimerosol or that vaccines cause autism. This, despite the fact that thimerosol has been removed for years without a drop in Autism rates and tens of million of dollars in research utterly refuting a link. I offer them packets of scientifically respectable information on vaccines, but they still refuse out of fear that their perfectly normal children will regress to the level of an autistic child. They prefer the hype of the medical garbage spread throughout the internet. I’ve had 14-16 year olds’ parents refuse vaccines for the same reason (despite the fact that there has never been a documented case of this).

What I’m truly surprised at is the fact that our illustrious legal community hasn’t begun a class action lawsuit against these parents and ‘autism’ advocates who are responsible for the fact that these eliminated diseases are making a comeback. If I were a parent whose child contracted an infectious disease from one of the unvaccinated children, I’d be out for blood. Why exactly hasn’t anybody sued Robert Kennedy and his minions for convincing parents not to vaccinate their children? To me, it’s the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

I mentioned in my column that if drug companies peddled a product as defective and dangerous as what the anti-vaccine hysterics are peddling, they'd be sued out of existence. I doubt, however, that we'll see any similar accountability on the part of the activists.


Baseless accusations cause a lot of grief.
Sometimes I think it would be a Good Deed to sue these accusers for malicious gossip and fine their asses some serious money.
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » March 25th, 2008, 7:21 am

To what gain?! It's their right not to get vaccinated. Also, there is freedom of speech thing too.
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Postby Wenceslas » March 25th, 2008, 8:37 am

It's not anones right to falsely accuse someone of a malicious deed without consequences either.

That is not protected speech.

It's their right not to get vaccinated, however - you did noe that the diseases that the vaccine targets is on the rise because these idiots exercised their right?

Do you think that's ok?[/quote]
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Postby Khaw » March 25th, 2008, 9:06 am

Wenceslas wrote:Do you think that's ok?


Does it matter if I think it's okay?

If they want to increase there chances of dieing to a disease by refusing the vaccine... There coffin.

People smoke and increase there chances at lung cancer, does it matter if I think it's alright?

People eat at McDonalds increasing there chance of heart attack, does it matter if I think it's alright?

People jump out of a perfectly good airplane with a backpack with ropes and cloth in it, does it matter if I think it's alright?

Basically, people do stuff all the time that places there health in jeopardy, and in most cases the health of others. A heart attack victim could have there attack while driving and cause an accident. A person falling from a plane could have a faulty chute, and hit someone on impact. Smoking... Second hand smoke comes to mind.

Point is it's there choice, why should it matter if I approve?
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Postby Wenceslas » March 25th, 2008, 9:15 am

Then there is another POV:
Michelle Malkin

Just pointed to it 'cause there is a lot there :D
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Postby Graal » April 3rd, 2008, 6:48 pm

To what gain?! It's their right not to get vaccinated.


No, they do not have the right not to get vaccinated, surprisingly enough. Just like if you have drug resistant TB you don't have the right to break quarantine. The government could require everyone to get vaccinated, and they come pretty darn close. All public schools require vaccinations for the major infectious diseases to admit children. So will private schools, for that matter.

Generally, most infectious diseases require a herd immunity greater than 90% to prevent outbreaks. Parents who aren't willing to vaccinate their children for the major infectious diseases are examples of free riders taking advantage of (and weakening) herd immunity.

They hope everyone else's children take the vaccines and the very small risk of an adverse reaction, so that their children don't have to. It's that simple. They would choose very differently if the rest of the population wasn't vaccinated. The chances of an adverse reaction are extremely low...but diptheria has about a 10% mortality rate. If enough people stop being vaccinated, we could again see hundreds of thousands of cases of polio per year...for which there is no cure.

Point is it's there choice, why should it matter if I approve?


Is it their choice to walk into a McDonalds and eat there...while infected with TB? Or hemorrhagic fever? Does it matter if you approve? A highly infectious disease is NOT the same thing as someone deciding they want to eat fatty foods. Someone going to a baseball game while infected with TB is very different than exposing someone to second hand smoke.

And Malkin has a point about some of those vaccinations; they aren't all in the same category, and some of the diseases are significantly more infectious than others. The DTaP vaccination is required in every state for a reason. Same with the Rubella\Mumps vaccines.
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » April 4th, 2008, 4:59 am

OK hmm... let me think here.
What the parents of Autistic children are going through is VERY Very Real. We aren't talking about "Hey, IF you don't get vaccinated your going to get measles or mumps." What we are looking at is that children now a days get vaccinated 3 times as much as they used to back in 93. Seriously that's crazy when your pokin a 10 pound baby with mercury-containing preservative.
Ok, so your thinking that it's not the whole cause. It could be environment, genetics but these can all be triggers. Triggers seems to be the go to word now.
So these parents faced with the decision, should I, should I not? For most wouldn't it be easy to say "Hell no, I'd rather my child get measles or mumps." FOR GODS Sake, I'd DAMNED Well wouldn't mind my son having a week of measles then a life time of Autism.
Do you see it now? Do you see it from our perspective?
I BELIEVE in Vaccinations! Yes YES I do... but you cannot give these parents grief because they are scared.
YES Sage had a bad fever after vaccinations, YES he was a normal child before vaccinations, but I would still vaccinate... I just wish some how that it could be safer or there would be some kind of change. I know it'll be hard for the Health Organization to change things but something HAS TO HAPPEN!

Look... statistics and whatever else the Health Organization says on behalf of the vaccinations that they are not the culprits CANNOT quiet the cries of all the parents who see their children leaving them.
We ALL need to work together to find out the cause and find a Cure or a road to recovery and STOP pointing fingers. DAMN IT!
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Postby Wenceslas » April 4th, 2008, 8:56 am

Seriously that's crazy when your pokin a 10 pound baby with mercury-containing preservative.


You must have not bothered to read: MOST vaccines (except for flu and one or two others)
DO NOT CONTAIN thimerisol or ANY mercury compound.
They have been eliminating mercury for vaccines for 30 years now.

The flu shots may/can offer a flu vaccine w/o anti-bacterial mercury. The mercury containing vaccines contain is measured in micrograms.


I don't blame people for being scared - I blame them for not being informed.
I'm sorry to repeat this again. I am not known for my tact.
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Postby Tykog » April 4th, 2008, 10:11 am

Wenceslas wrote: The mercury containing vaccines contain is measured in micrograms.


poison, is poison

and while you as an adult, or even and older child may not react to it at all

a baby, would be more suseptable
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Postby Wenceslas » April 4th, 2008, 10:33 am

A measles outbreak in and around the Austrian city of Salzburg has spread to about 180 people, most of them schoolchildren, authorities said Thursday. . . .

Hubert Hrabcik, director general of public health in Austria's Health Ministry, said the vaccination rate for measles, mumps and rubella, which are administered together, may have been "almost nil" at the school. . . . Five people between the ages of 16 and 30 have been hospitalized but all are on their way to recovery and one was released Thursday, Salzburg's Federal Medical Center said.

Once a scourge of children in Europe, measles spreads very easily, jumping from person to person through droplets emitted in sneezing or coughing. It is one of the most contagious diseases known, according to the World Health Organization.

An estimated 242,000 people, the majority of them children, died from measles in 2006, the latest year for which figures are available, the WHO says.


Also

poison, is poison


Really.
Hmmmm.
NaF is poison yet you need this for strong teeth. Proven fact that strong teeth require minute amounts of this chemical.
Molybdenum is like mercury, poisonous compounds - again you need minute amounts for you body to function.
Selenium is very poisonous - yet you need it as well.

Sorry, my mistake - without trying I found a site offering flu vaccines that are thimerisol free.
What's "free" mean? That means that there may be trace amounts.

Flu vaccines are not given to babies younger than 6 months.

Are you referring to:
Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) is an illness characterized by fever, nerve damage, and muscle weakness. In 1976, vaccination with the swine flu vaccine was associated with development of GBS. Studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS, with only one of the studies showing an association. That single study suggested that one person out of 1 million vaccinated persons may be at risk of GBS associated with the vaccine.
?
No thimeresol there.

the routine infant vaccines are in single dose vials, are preservative free, and we agree on this point.

No thimeresol there.

Is it the definitive word? Nope.

Thimeresol is the "scare" word of a lot of people. It's turning out to be just another urban legend.

We ALL need to work together to find out the cause and find a Cure or a road to recovery and STOP pointing fingers.


No argument there.
But you know that there are uncertainties dealing with complex biological things like humans. Why do we require odd stuff like selenium in the first place? Why do one thousand kids not feel a vaccination and the next one goes into a coma?
We're a long way to understanding this.
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Postby Wenceslas » April 4th, 2008, 10:36 am

Did you read that article I posted that was in Wired magazine?
Boy was that interesting - it was about a few autistic kids (severely autistic) that do some incredible communication using computers. It may lead to some rather interesting studies to help autistic kids.
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Postby Graal » April 4th, 2008, 11:11 am

What the parents of Autistic children are going through is VERY Very Real.


Yes, what they are going through *IS* very real, but their belief that their child's autism was caused by a vaccine is wrong. It doesn't matter how strongly they believe, it doesn't matter how intensly they feel about it, they are wrong.

Look... statistics and whatever else the Health Organization says on behalf of the vaccinations that they are not the culprits CANNOT quiet the cries of all the parents who see their children leaving them.


You're right, because grieving parents aren't interested in "statistics and whatever else", they are interested in emotional comfort. That's fine, but public policy should be based on fact, not emotionally comforting fallacies.

you cannot give these parents grief because they are scared.


To be blunt, yes I can. If their fear is irrational and dangerous to society, yes, I can and I will. I don't know that I would "give them grief", but I would certainly tell them they are wrong and that they are being irresponsible for not having their children vaccinated.

Ok, so your thinking that it's not the whole cause.


I'm not "thinking" anything. It's not the whole cause...because it's not any part of the cause.

We ALL need to work together to find out the cause and find a Cure or a road to recovery and STOP pointing fingers. DAMN IT!


You are talking about autism. Vaccines have nothing to do with autism. That's the point.
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Postby Graal » April 4th, 2008, 11:18 am

poison, is poison


I guess you wouldn't want to eat any salt would you, since it's a poison...except of course you would die without any salt. Vitamin C is a poison, but I'm guessing you'd rather not get scurvy. Hell, oxygen is a poison. But "poison is poison", so I guess you'll just have to go without.

To drive it home even more...alchohol is a poison! ;)
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » April 4th, 2008, 8:07 pm

Really.
Hmmmm.

If that's not sarcasm, I don't know what is.

Graal, there have been many cases that show Vaccines have triggered their child to have autism.
Hannah Poling is one case that the government said IN FACT that vaccines had a help in her becoming Autistic.
Now even though you basically gutted my last post seeing only what you wanted to see and seem not to even give me or other millions of other families who have expressed their fears any benefit of the doubt, and blatantly say "Your wrong." Then tell me, is the government wrong too?
Or should I believe you and not pediatricians, not the government?

Larry King Live: Autism
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

I will say it again, then I am done with this conversation. Cause it seems that I am just not being heard. I am not against vaccinations but change has to happen.
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Postby Tykog » April 4th, 2008, 8:38 pm

the human body needs certain things, but if it needs a certain amount, then thats not poison

just about anything is poisonous if you take enough of it

my point is they shouldnt be using those "preservatives" in medications they give to infants
because an infants body isnt as well equipped to deal with it as an adult would be

and wence, not all of those studies your so proud of are independant studies

and the polling case loon mentioned, the government didnt even have a hearing for it, no trial at all
they just came out and pretty much said, yes, the vaccine triggered it

i'm not saying get rid of vaccines, and generally neither is anyone else dealing with autism
they're saying get rid of the mercury, the aluminum, and any other obviously unneeded chemical
and change up the schedule of shots, so that the kids dont take 9 or so at a time

and what would you rather have... Measels, or Autism?
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Postby Wenceslas » April 4th, 2008, 10:13 pm

i'm not saying get rid of vaccines, and generally neither is anyone else dealing with autism
they're saying get rid of the mercury, the aluminum, and any other obviously unneeded chemical
and change up the schedule of shots, so that the kids dont take 9 or so at a time

and what would you rather have... Measels, or Autism?


I know you are not saying get rid of vaccines.
You're saying get rid of uneeded chemicals - they are needed in the manufacture of and sterility during creating said vaccines.
Besides that fact that these parents with autistic children scream about thimeresol which they DID get rid of the thimeresol for most vaccines.
The very few left that still have thimeresol have it in 1/100 the concentration and there ARE alternatives.

AND people read about how poisonous methyl mercury is in the body while thimeresol is an ETHYL mercury compound which is already known to be much less toxic. Kinda like methyl vs ethyl alcohol: One kills the other makes ya tipsy.

As far as Measles vs Autism: Autism - it's NOT contagious and does NOT kill.
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