Autism vs Vaccines - Another Myth

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Autism vs Vaccines - Another Myth

Postby Wenceslas » January 11th, 2008, 8:53 pm

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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » January 11th, 2008, 10:18 pm

Mmm hmm. Well, if this is true it really doesn't change anything. It would be nice to find the smoking gun.
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Postby Cuin » January 12th, 2008, 2:44 am

I'd like to see credible data on this. My wife, an early-interventionist, suspected our oldest to be on the autistic spectrum and selected the more costly, mercury-free immunizations for him. He was later diagnosed as having Asberger's, and underwent a short period of physical therapy, along with continued speech therapy. The change over the past year or two has been dramatic and heartwarming. At worst, he seems a little shy when compared with other children his age, and at best he is completely indistinguishable. I often wonder what might have happened had we gone with the regular round of vaccinations -- would it all have happened the same way, or would we be be facing full-blown autism?
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Postby Wenceslas » January 12th, 2008, 3:08 am

According to this study outlined in the hyperlinked article, no - it wouldn't have made a difference.
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Postby Solaxx » January 18th, 2008, 9:43 pm

Do you really think that if it were proven true(a vaccine and autism connection) it would be allowed to be stated as such to the general public? That may sound silly, but I still wonder.
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Postby Wenceslas » January 18th, 2008, 9:54 pm

Yes.

One word to back that up: Thalidomide.
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Postby Solaxx » January 18th, 2008, 10:39 pm

I guess I am just paranoid that drug companies now are very different from drug companies in the 50's and 60's.

Meaning that I just don't trust them. Maybe I have watched one too many X-Files episodes and think that western medicine is mostly full of crap and our Govt and the drug companies are more concerned with money than peoples lives.

Thalidomide lawsuits were settled by like 800 people. What would the number be if Thimerisol were found to be the culprit for Autism? Pure conjecture on my part so not really an argument. I guess I am just paranoid.

So have you seen anything that shows some good possibilities for the increases in Autism over the years? I would like to see what the medical community thinks.
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Postby Wenceslas » January 18th, 2008, 11:40 pm

personally - I think the number of autism cases rose because they've reclassified the diagnostics to include more forms of it and/or the testing is more sensitive/detailed.

I think the Thimerisol scare was concocted by ignorant people not wanting to have their goofies inoculated against 100year old child killers like diphtheria, measles and polio and the like.

They hit upon Thimerisol only because it does contain a minute amount of mercury. See Me
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines.

Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine (see Table 1). A preservative-free version of the inactivated influenza vaccine (contains trace amounts of thimerosal) is available in limited supply at this time for use in infants, children and pregnant women. Some vaccines such as Td, which is indicated for older children (≥ 7 years of age) and adults, are also now available in formulations that are free of thimerosal or contain only trace amounts. Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose.
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » January 19th, 2008, 2:15 pm

There is a certain peace of mind that comes with finding the culprit of the disorder. I think thats why people want to blame Thirmerisol so badly. You know, being able to point the finger at someone or something. Then focusing all their pent up rage on to it. /shrug For some thats what helps them sleep at night.
I would really like to know how this happened but I'm not going to freak out when I find out. What good will it do anyway?

As for the reclassification stuff. Though they did, I'm sure, that doesn't mean that those kids/people haven't been waiting in the dark. Autism has been researched since... goodness, um the 1950s? I think, I have to go back and find that out. Still, no one can tell me that the number hasn't risen. From 1950 to now? Uh ya, I did my own research, it was easy. Just using my own "old" community Merced County. Sure no one really knew anything about Autism back when I was growing up, but I still can look back and recognize the signs of Autism. I don't remember one person showing signs. No, it's not something I looked for when I was growing up as I do now, but I still can remember that far back. My memory isn't all that bad. heh

So yes, they reclassified it and yes, those children/adults are still there. Do I think there is a rise in Autism without all the statistics and such telling me so, uh YA! Until the people who do those polls or whatever can log every Autistic person, we really won't know for certain that there is a rise or how significant that rise is.


meh... hope I didn't babble or go off topic dern it.
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Postby Direblade » January 19th, 2008, 3:20 pm

I would say there are likely a number of reasons for te rise in cases of autism. Just for starters there is reclassification, add to that increased pollution of the atmosphere and water supplies, add to that increased incidence of drug use since the 50"s, then add in more fast food intake, especially since the 70's - and all the preservatives, additives, etc...

When one stops to consider all the UNnatural things we do to our bodies on a daily basis, and then adds in the things we do when we are young and especially stupid.... its a miracle humanity still exists.

As for my point with drugs, and no I'm not saying thats the whole problem (or even the biggest contributer), think on this - anything you take into your body alters it, while the overt alteration is short term (high for X minutes, chemicals in system in DETECTABLE amounts for X days or weeks) the longer term effects have seen (at best) limited study. As a hypothetical point you smoke for 5 years, quit, ten years later develop lung cancer as a result of smoking, even though the nicotine and other such have long since worked out of your system in any traceable amounts. Well, guess what? Sperm/eggs are cells too, what if all the drugs/ciggarrettes/pollution/crappy food has lasting and unknown effects on them or on unborn fetuses even years after you stop the behavior in question? And for that matter since it does take two to tango it could be in EITHER parents system from years before and still have a minute effect on the baby, a minute effect that perhaps is a domino in a line.

There needs to be significant long term testing of te effects of food additives, poor diet (McBurgers), smoking, drugs, and pollution on the reproductive systems and on the body as a whole. Right now most studies of any of these are done for 5 years or less (atleast the studies I'm familiar with).

Further I would GUESS that there are subtle alterations in humanity taking place at a molecular level as a result of these foreign influences, perhaps even a genetic one. The big question is to what extent, is it going to create a cascade (domino) effect, and if so what can we do about it.

As to what would be required to TRULY study this? at minimum 30-35 years, a couple thousand volunteers, MD's, geneticists, psychologists, biologists, and neurologists, along with BILLIONS, if not trillions of dollars each decade of the study.
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Postby Menoly » January 19th, 2008, 4:00 pm

It's almost impossible to do a study like that Dire. It isn't possible to control the variables. You can't say okay, this couple...you guys don't do anything but eat junk food... This couple... ok you guys smoke. You guys, coke. All scientists can do is study people who already do those things... and it's difficult because most of the time people don't have just one vice. So what you think is caused by one drug, might really be caused by another drug that they didn't mention, or even something not being studied, like the fast food you were talking about. Some things we just may never know, at least until the world degenerates to a point where we ignore or toss out ethical guidelines.
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Postby Direblade » January 19th, 2008, 4:41 pm

Actually thats why I say such a large volunteer base, offer them a fee for testing monthy (blood, urine, etc) as well as ask that they simply note down all the food, drugs (including medications) etc they consume, as well as note environmental factors and such. While not AS accurate as a lab test with controlled subjects would be, it would give us a REASONABLY accurate picture over time. Granted we're talking HUGE undertaking, but it is doable, just extremely expensive.
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Postby Wenceslas » January 19th, 2008, 7:11 pm

It's rather unpossible even as you try to justify it.
The data is not reducible because there are no controls.

I want you t think on all of the goofy assed shit these "scientists" have come out against and 20 years later are proven to be absolutely wrong because they had a bad premise and/or control group.

A number of sugar substitutes comes to mind.
None of them are proven to be cancer causing agents after all...they got rid of Fizzies (used cyclamates) for nothing. THOSE FUCKING BASTARDS!!

Organic Foods are another goofy abstract of no control base and no scientific methods. We're talking about a bunch of tree-huggers thinking we need to go back to medieval technology to grow food by...but the stupid new-age yuppies bought it and are paying dearly for "Organically" grown foods.

So all this relates to the simple factoid that no-one really understood the testing used to prove Thimerisol as a preservative and they didn't appreciate the evils of heavy metal poisoning by mercury - OH WAIT - are you buying CFC's to be Green??? All those fluorescent tubes use MERCURY and BERYLLIUM...in the form of deadly poisonous powders...

Let's not hijack the autism thread no mo....you want to take up a thread of bad science - we can =-)
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » January 19th, 2008, 8:26 pm

nevermind
Last edited by Erilyn Cureheart on January 20th, 2008, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Direblade » January 19th, 2008, 10:01 pm

The very size of the control group, along with initial samples versus those taken over the years would qualify as a control Wnece. To say that REAL research needs to be conducted into the cause is not hijacking, its suggesting that we as a people are NOT looking at a bigger picture.

Instances of a number of diseases and genetic defects including Autism, Diabetes, and various other physical and psychological disorders are all increasing, and we need to find out why. Finding that out WILL require a long term study, not a 3-5 year research group. Spending too little time and energy on something is what leads to shoddy results such as those you mentioned.

Also before you start accusing me of hijacking stop and consider how very much a number of similar subjects affect various members of the guild (myself included) and their families or friends. Real research into the increase of all these problems, including Austism, Bipolar disorder, Diabetes, etc needs to be done and considering that the increases in incidence all seem to start occuring within a close time frame to 3each other there is a VERY real possibility that they may be linked in some common way in terms of what is causing the increase.
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Postby Wenceslas » January 20th, 2008, 1:23 am

The very size of the control group, along with initial samples versus those taken over the years would qualify as a control Wnece. To say that REAL research needs to be conducted into the cause is not hijacking, its suggesting that we as a people are NOT looking at a bigger picture.

Instances of a number of diseases and genetic defects including Autism, Diabetes, and various other physical and psychological disorders are all increasing, and we need to find out why. Finding that out WILL require a long term study, not a 3-5 year research group. Spending too little time and energy on something is what leads to shoddy results such as those you mentioned.


AND I agree to some extant...

I merely suggested they are looking at as big of a picture as they can and still maintain some sort of control group functionality.

Diabetes is going to have a cure in ten years. It looks like they'll basically clone your Isle of Langerhans cells to make new ones that work.

Now let me get nonpersonal just to make a few points.
Why are these malfunctions like autism occurring?
Medicine is largely to blame. Hypergermatocide is another good reason.

Boy Scouts had a great Rule at Summer Camp: Anything dropped on the ground that is food...is STILL food - it is more or less safe to eat.
I think it makes sense that people maintaining a Mr Clean environment for their kidnorks now raise them with weakened auto immune systems due to LACK of auto immune exercise. No germs to fight!! How do you think vaccines work? They're dead or very weakened germs for your bod to generate anti-bodies for.

Medicine also allows those that may have died of (natural) causes decades earlier to survive today. Thus we have spina bifada patients wandering around with no real reason to do so. Sorry if that sounds heartless - but I have strong feelings about what medicine should and shoud NOT do in the cause of survival.
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Postby Cuin » January 20th, 2008, 1:32 am

Though not a "cause," I find it interesting that autism should be more prevalent within certain circles of people. The incidence of autism in children of parents working in technological industries has been well documented. Between the two EQ guilds to which I belonged, at least four members are parents of children on the autistic spectrum. Of my fifty-odd guitar students, two have formal Asberger's diagnoses, and I strongly suspect a third. What's more is that in diagnosing my son, I found myself answering "yes" to many of the same questions doctors asked of him. I'm no statistician, but these seem like unusually high numbers for an allegedly rare condition.
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Postby Khaw » January 20th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Erilyn Cureheart wrote: Do I think there is a rise in Autism without all the statistics and such telling me so, uh YA!


I would have to say as long as global population rises, there will be a rise in every disorder. So I would say that's a safe thing to think Loon :D
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Postby Wenceslas » January 20th, 2008, 5:30 pm

I would have to say as long as global population rises, there will be a rise in every disorder.


Excluding diseases...I am going to assume yer referring to neurological type of disorders.

Not too surprising, descending from tree-dwelling apes to hunter-gatherers in small tribes to these vast social beehives or people is bound to be stressful on our species psyche...
Witness the rise of inexplicable violent crimes...of course that might also be from the misguided attempts to ban weapons - a proven exercise in pandering versus prevention.
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Postby Erilyn Cureheart » January 20th, 2008, 5:52 pm

OOH! Yes, Khaw! I forgot to mention the rise in population. In the town I am in now there is less people than the town I was living in previously, so yes, to true.
In Sage's class rooms there were... 8 children all together in the community, in this community there is only Sage, that I know of.
Less Population, less cases.

Cuin wrote:Though not a "cause," I find it interesting that autism should be more prevalent within certain circles of people. The incidence of autism in children of parents working in technological industries has been well documented. Between the two EQ guilds to which I belonged, at least four members are parents of children on the autistic spectrum. Of my fifty-odd guitar students, two have formal Asberger's diagnoses, and I strongly suspect a third. What's more is that in diagnosing my son, I found myself answering "yes" to many of the same questions doctors asked of him. I'm no statistician, but these seem like unusually high numbers for an allegedly rare condition.

If anyone tells you that this disorder is rare, they are lying. As far as I'm concerned this is getting up there with Cancer, if it hasn't already.
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Postby Rredd » January 21st, 2008, 3:47 pm

The larger a community you have, the more likely that Mr. Nerdy Guy can hook up with Ms. Nerdy Gurl. They get married, have a few kids and find out after the fact that they were both borderline asbergers (sp?) and kiddo #3 got it from both sides and ends up profoundly Autistic.

This is why there is a HUGE bloom of autism in Silicon Valley.

The fiancee and I are both "Nerdy" and I'm a bit worried in the back of my head how the kids are going to turn out. I can easily see where we would end up with one Doctor (after mom), one Engineer (flex!), and one profoundly autistic child.

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Postby Frayja » January 21st, 2008, 4:14 pm

Hmm, with the ways that ppl are having babys that cant have babys the population incress is on the rise.

Here is a thought- for many decades the hight for a man was conserdered all at 6foot. Now it seems that 6foot + is the norm, all the growth hormoans in the beef, chicken, pork we eat ...... just a thought that our food could be a contribting factor, not the main reason
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Postby Wenceslas » January 21st, 2008, 6:50 pm

Here is a thought- for many decades the hight for a man was conserdered all at 6foot. Now it seems that 6foot + is the norm, all the growth hormoans in the beef, chicken, pork we eat ...... just a thought that our food could be a contribting factor, not the main reason

Hormone Studies

Basically - nothing to date has shown this is a problem.
But also, more studies are needed.
Personally - I think this is completely goofy. I think it's more social than environmental.
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Postby Rhen » February 21st, 2008, 3:39 am

Solaxx wrote:Do you really think that if it were proven true(a vaccine and autism connection) it would be allowed to be stated as such to the general public? That may sound silly, but I still wonder.


If they admitted it they would have major lawsuits. It's a big thing right now. All we can do is wait and see.
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Postby Khaw » February 21st, 2008, 4:47 am

Rhen wrote:
Solaxx wrote:Do you really think that if it were proven true(a vaccine and autism connection) it would be allowed to be stated as such to the general public? That may sound silly, but I still wonder.


If they admitted it they would have major lawsuits. It's a big thing right now. All we can do is wait and see.


They could have major lawsuits anyways... Big tobacco...
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