me for Prez 2012

Let the debates begin.

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Postby Khaw » February 8th, 2008, 11:03 am

Don’t come to me with some my sisters, husbands, cousin defense. Something that can’t be verified and actual taxable income is unknown. Come to me with facts, like this:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

Based off of a single person, taxable wages earned, taxes paid, % of there income paid in taxes.

20,000 - 2,163 - 10.8%
40,000 - 6,430 - 16%
60,000 - 11,430 - 19%
80,000 - 16,518 - 20.1%
100,000 - 22,104 - 22.1%

People making more then $350,000 are taxed at a rate of 35% on anything over the $350,000.

Click the link, look at the very last page, show me I am wrong. Explain to me how 22.1% is smaller then 10.8%, or how 35% is smaller. Explain to me how a flat rate doesn’t benefit the rich? The only way is if the flat rate is higher then or equal to the rate they already pay in which case you screw the fuck out of the poor.

Instead you bring me some comparison of 2 individuals, I don’t even know the financial situation of. Well I have a idea of yours, single no children, my guess. Your uncle? NFC. Is he married? If so does she work? Does he have kids under the age of 18 living with him? If so how many? All this play’s into taxable income. Take me for example, married to a stay at home mom, 4 kids. This all means I can make about 35,000 more then you and pay the same tax as you. That’s just from standard deductions and the lower tax rate on married couples filing jointly. We haven’t even gotten into any other type of deduction here.

Now that top 1% pay’s 50% of taxes Wence posted is a little of an exageration, but not by much.

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%).


Most recent one I could find without a lot of searching. So it’s actually the top 5% that pay about 50% of the taxes. I’m just going to go with that number for the example, to make it easy.

Say we have 500 people and they pay in total $50,000 in taxes. 25 of those people pay $1,000 each, while the remaining 95% of the populace pay the other $25,000. That’s about $263 per 1%, 5 people, but there is 5% out there, 25 people that pay $25,000. Tell me how we aren’t already screwing the rich?

There’s a reason we don’t have a flat rate now… Which party actually wants to cut there own jugular when the masses find out how screwed they get under this new flat rate system? Granted your just making it fair, but when the masses get that new tax bill, they ain’t gonna look at it that way.

You really wanna screw the rich? Take away those tax shelters and deductions they mostly benefit from.
Last edited by Khaw on February 8th, 2008, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xanai » February 8th, 2008, 11:09 am

Allow me to clarify Xanai the constitution hasnt been followed unless it was convient in a century and a half. Began in 1860 and hasn't stopped since. Want examples? The Brady Bill, The Vietnam War, Lend Lease just before WW2, te federalization of state troops in the 1860's, shall I continue?

Who cares? It is wrong and it should stop. That's like saying if you rape someone, we're going to rape someone other than you to show you that it's wrong. You're basically saying it's ok to break the law because someone else broke the law first. If you're running for the office of executing the law, you first shouldn't admit that you're going to break the law as often as possible.

Never stated we didnt have troops all over the world, I stated I dont want them all over the world, however since we seem to be forced into this over and over fuck it we should have enough to do the fucking job.

If you're running for President and the first thing you say is "Let's increase military spending!" then tacitly you're consenting that you like having troops all over the planet. Otherwise, make it point #88 or whatever - "bring our boys HOME."

Secondly Xanai if you'll recall during the mid 80's to early 90's the Military cutback a number of bases, scaled back the number of units on active duty, etc

I remember Reagan challenging the Russki's to an arms war, nearly bankrupting the government and winning the Cold War. If that's what you call cutting the military back, then I have no idea where you're coming from. Again, Reagan nearly broke the system by spending so much money on the military.

The Clinton administration further cut back numbers of active duty troops and bases (ie the conversion of Carswell AFB from a active bomber base to a JRB under Naval Control).

Um, yes the military under Reagan and even during Bush's brief tenure was way too big - it was designed to fight a world war, not deal with problems. No massive super-power to fight = you can have a smaller military.

As for the military not needing payraises? I DARE you to go on any base and tell the soldiers, who in the main make a FUCKOFALOT less than a civilian in the same job that, I can guarantee all the MMA in the world wouldnt stop the asskicking that would ensue.

#1 I didn't address points #2 or #3 of your proposal. I suppose I was tacitly conceeding that soldiers, all soldiers, need better training and more pay - they have a hard job.
#2 This is a biased sample fallacy. If I went to all the shoemakers and asked them do they like shoes, I'll probably get a bunch of "yes'". Similarly, if I went to a group of underpayed people and asked them if they'd like more pay - they'll probably say "yes."

Want another example a number of units were also disbanded during the last 20 years.

You mean the troops from 1988 - 2008? Umm, well no duh? How about the massive build up in the military-industrial complex in the 50 years preceeding that though.

As far as calling my goals Imperial. Your argument there makes ZERO sense as each time the White House changes hands in terms of party the first thing the new president does typically is reverse all the policies of the previous administration.

Yes and they can do that because they're all basically breaking the law oen right after another.

Further lets face it, no less than ancient Rome we are an Empire. Like it or no it is fact. Further we are an Empire which was founded on conquest (of Native American nations, through victories in te Mexican American War, the Spanish American War, WW1 and 2 etc.) What is Puerto Rico, the entire South West, most of the Midwest, etc if not conquered territory?

#1 America was not intended to be an Empire.
#2 You're not going to win any votes to be President by saying, "We've broken the law in the past and I plan on continuing to break the law in the future."
#3 If you're saying Oh well, we're a violent, military-based empire bent on conquest by what right do you have for telling the terrorists that they shouldnt' be attacking us - they should be attacking us, we're the Bad guys from V for Vendetta; even by your own assertions. Unity through Faith and Strength through Unity!

As for the money the President makes, yes it is crappy for the job, but the perks (Air Force 1, taxpayer paid 500 dollar haircuts on the runway, etc) more than make up for it.

Maybe, but he's got a job to do and it makes no sense to punish him for doing his job.

Education spending is being mostly misspent which is why I say it should not only increase, but reform the systems of education to produce technically proficient students who have needed job skills. Rather than griping on one point take in the whole argument.

You. Don't. Need. To. Increase. Spending.

Knoxville Christian School costs $2,500 a year and turns out a much better student than public schools (in every measurable area). Public Schools average $10,000 per student based on DoEducation statistics. So for 1/4 the cost you get a better student, why on earth should we increase spending in an area that basically just needs to be deregulated and turned into a business. Schools shouldn't cost the taxpayer anything, they should generate revenue which can be taxed.

As for calling the rich the producers? I could debate that point all day long since te DEFINITION of production in to make something, and the rich themselves dont do that, their employees do.

Bull crud. If I've got a billion dollars I need to do somethign with it so it doesn't run out, I probably invest it in something. The stock broker has a job because of me, the company that I invest in can hire workers because of the capital I invest, the workers that are hired by the company that I invested in can now go out and buy houses and cars and all sorts of goodies. Take my billion dollars out of the equation and no stock broker, no company, no workers, no new houses, cars, etc. By my capital I have produced serious economic growth in a way that is:
1) Taxable
2) Non Constant Sum
3) Good for just about everyone

You want a bazooka and nerve gas? Consttutionally you have that right. Constitutionally if you fuck up and get caught you would be tried, and if convicted punished.

*sigh* I do not Constitutionally have the right to Nerve Gas. Article 2, Section 8 of the Constition gives the authority to organize the militias to Congress. There are all sorts of hoops I'd have to jump through before they started giving me Saryn gas.

On welfare reform you ask about my right to take your money and give t to others, Xanai, thats already being done, what the fuckdo you think welfare is.

I think what is being done now is criminal and should be stopped. FWIW, I also think rape is wrong and should be stopped as well as child molesting. Are there any other crimes you're wondering if I think they should be stopped or not?

Atleast reformed it would force them to get the fuck off welfare after training them in something valuable to society rather than them staying on welfares rolls potentially for years at a time.

If it's wrong, it's wrong all the time. Breaking a just law in order to pass a just law is wrong.

As for taxing imports, guess what, if jobs here weren't constantly being outsourced to fucking india, and the schools were turning kids out with a DESIREABLE education then there wouldnt be as many poor, and even the poor still left would likely still be better off than they are now. Further taxing imports would keep our products competitive with imports atleast here in the US.

Weak sauce. If unions didn't demand a truckload of money for inferior production then our economy would be better. Who cares if you've got a job that pays $35 an hour, if tennis shoes costs $300 a pair. Companies going overseas = lower cost products. Lower cost products = more purchasing power for my money. More purchains power for my money = good.

Terrorst - anyone using force/deadly against CIVILIAN targets with the intent to induce such fear as to influence national policy

So the guys in the Boston Tea Party = Terrorists? Because they sure weren't attacking the British Imperial Tea service. Awesome, our founding fathers were all terrorists...

If by the Beethoven example you refer to the fact he was deaf long before composing many of his greatest works, yes he was deaf, but his intelligence can hardly be questioned now can it?

His parents had a history of having children die in infancy / before being brought to term and they had amazingly bad credit (fleeing from creditors alot is something they were good at).

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Postby Wenceslas » February 8th, 2008, 11:09 am

Take away too much from the rich and they'll move.
Some of you will say "Good! let them move!"

Some of you completely missed what Khaw showed you: Our tax income drops by a lot for every rich person you piss off and moves out of country.

Keep the Bush tax cuts and don't fuck around with the taxes much.

Personally I think there should be the current rates and zero deductions for anyone.

Thanks Khaw, I remembered it slightly off - 1% and 50% were both there - I jsut kinda contracted it. :P ERROR! ERROR!
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Postby Rredd » February 8th, 2008, 4:20 pm

Khaw wrote:Don’t come to me with some my sisters, husbands, cousin defense. Something that can’t be verified and actual taxable income is unknown. Come to me with facts, like this:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

Based off of a single person, taxable wages earned, taxes paid, % of there income paid in taxes.

20,000 - 2,163 - 10.8%
40,000 - 6,430 - 16%
60,000 - 11,430 - 19%
80,000 - 16,518 - 20.1%
100,000 - 22,104 - 22.1%

People making more then $350,000 are taxed at a rate of 35% on anything over the $350,000.

Click the link, look at the very last page, show me I am wrong. Explain to me how 22.1% is smaller then 10.8%, or how 35% is smaller. Explain to me how a flat rate doesn’t benefit the rich? The only way is if the flat rate is higher then or equal to the rate they already pay in which case you screw the fuck out of the poor.

.....

You really wanna screw the rich? Take away those tax shelters and deductions they mostly benefit from.


It's really all about the tax shelters. However every single "flat tax" proposal includes by definition a huge cut to the deductions side. They also crow about the cost savings associated with a massive simplification of the tax code. Also as a byproduct they put a TON of tax accountants/lawyers out of business because everything is easier and simpler. They also usually have a provision for no tax at the lowest levels, say 0% tax up to 20k.

Ultimatly flat tax systems make no difference to the low income folks because the flat rate us usually pretty close to the current lowest bracket, or they boost the tax free income allowance to balance it.

They help middle class folks a TON because these folks make enough money to be paying in the higher brackets, but if they have a family and whatnot they have enough expenses and not enough "play money" to make tax shelters work.

Who gets screwed by flat tax systems is actually the rich folks because now they actually do have to pay their share. These folks are the ones that fund political campagnes so we can rest assured that flat tax will never happen. The danger here is that if they ease up a bit and allow too many of the deductions to stay, then in the end nothing has been accomplished.

The premise of deductions in the first place is to motivate the wealthy to do something with their assets that stimulates the economy rather than just buying stacks of gold bars and throwing them in a safe someplace. I'm not talking about the piddly deductions for your church offerings or charity donations here... I'm talking about biggies. Stuff that allows someone who grosses $1m/year to pay less net tax than someone who makes $100k/year. You really need to be over 200-300k before you really break into the juicy stuff unless you are single or live well below your means.
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Postby Parthin » February 8th, 2008, 4:26 pm

I RLY liked your chart, Pressto. 8)
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Postby Wenceslas » February 8th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Look people,

Many many charts and figures just don't agree with the fact that "rich folks" don't pay their share. They pay 45+ something of their income now.

Us middle income pay out 25-30%, you think that's too much?
Of course you do. Everyone does.

Just what DO you call a fair share? 75% of earnings? Of what income level should you give the fucking government 70+% of anything you make?

That's what it was about 40 years ago and that's pretty unfair if you ask me.
That's what Great Britain taxes some of their wealthier folk...some being loyal - didn't move out of country.

If you reduce taxes too far - your government will fail.
Too high and you will lose people.
Remember the tale about ten people going out to dinner and paying "their fair share"...I don't remember exactly the divisions but the bottom 3-4 people paid nothing. The next 2-3 paid out about 1-4 bucks, and the top earner paid out 50% of the total dinner....wish I could find that - it's applicable.

If you were that top earner - would you fucking pay half a dinner bill for 9 other people?

I might if they were friends....but not every single week.
That tends to make expectations that are incorrect to make.
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Postby Wendiyenie » February 9th, 2008, 12:10 am

Example my brother was a Sgt. (E4) in the AF when he left he was an AMP on KC 135


I am not trying to be rude, just pointing our in AF E-4 is a Senior Airman, E-5 is SGT. The transition from "Lower Enlisted" to "Non Commisioned Officer" takes place from E-4 to E-5/ The Army and MC both have Corporals, in the army very few are seen being they have the Specialist Rank, although E-4 corporals have more responsibilities they recieve the same or less respect. :D I do like your ideas about higher pay raise for soldiers, sailors, and airmen =)

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorder ... nlrank.htm

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/l/blafrank.htm

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/l/blafrank2.htm
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Postby Direblade » February 9th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Pressto wrote:Then how could you state: "The national debt is calculated based on import/export and spending versus prduction." No wonder our schools are so terrible now.

If they didn't teach you the difference between a trade deficit and national debt I suggest you go back to the school and get a refund for the econ class. :)


And how can you, in your "infinite" wisdom pretend that national debt and the trade defficit are NOT so closely related as to for all PRACTICAL intents and purposes be the same thing. Simply put if it weren't for the trade Deficit we wouldnt have much (f any) of the national debt we currently carry.

Honestly Pressto its great that you make enough money to read financial magazines regularly. Happy for you, most of us DONT, and the biggest reason most of us DONT is because the people who DO make the financial decisions in this country like to pretend they can isolate linked issues and address them as separate when in fact they aren't. The are separate symptoms of the same root issue.

So frankly Pressto, take your magazines, shove them in the shitter, cause that is where the professional economists have placed this countries finances. Proving, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that just like in 1929 they dont have a fucking clue what they're talking about.... and BTW these are the people you're listening to, soooooooo what does that say?
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Postby Direblade » February 9th, 2008, 3:23 pm

Khaw wrote:Don’t come to me with some my sisters, husbands, cousin defense. Something that can’t be verified and actual taxable income is unknown. Come to me with facts, like this:



So what you want me to post my uncles and my returns? I dont think so, ESPECIALLY not in a public forum. As has been stated elsewhere its about the deductions and shelters available. Base percentages mean nothing, final results are what matter and many shelters/deductions simply cannot be used unless you have high income.
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Postby Xanai » February 9th, 2008, 4:22 pm

So what you want me to post my uncles and my returns? I dont think so, ESPECIALLY not in a public forum. As has been stated elsewhere its about the deductions and shelters available. Base percentages mean nothing, final results are what matter and many shelters/deductions simply cannot be used unless you have high income.

I think you're kinda missing the point homie. Without any supporting evidence from your sister's cousin's brother's uncle then you're committing a number of logical fallacies (appeal to ignorance right off the bat) and then expecting us to believe what runs contrary to our own experiences, verifiable facts and statistics.

What you should do instead, that is if you actually want to prove your point, is to find verifiable evidence that the position you hold is empirically verifiable.

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Postby Xanai » February 9th, 2008, 4:24 pm

Ultimatly flat tax systems make no difference to the low income folks because the flat rate us usually pretty close to the current lowest bracket, or they boost the tax free income allowance to balance it.

They help middle class folks a TON because these folks make enough money to be paying in the higher brackets, but if they have a family and whatnot they have enough expenses and not enough "play money" to make tax shelters work.

Well, since we're here I might as well ask the question...

What do you (all) think of the "Fair tax"? The one Neal Boortz is always going on about.

On it's face, it seems like a good idea: a tax on newly, produced consumption. This way the poor can avoid the majority of taxes while those who have the most wealth to spend pay the most of the taxes. The more you spend the more you tax, the less you spend the less you tax. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

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Postby Whorace Powers » February 10th, 2008, 2:39 am

DB, before you read my posts, keep in mind my rebuttals are not intended to be personal attacks. They are simply my rebuttals to what you posted or my aggreances if any pop up. This disclaimer brought to you by the letter Z

1) More money for military spending

Why? Our military is currently the largest, most well paid and effective military in the known world. It is stupidly spread out, and is mismanaged like everything else our government does. How about we recall most occupying forces, and cut out a lot of the bloated and unneccessary beuracracy that tells the military how and when to do whatever. I mean illiminate the useless "middle management" parts. And repeal that dumb ammendment that lets the Pres do as he will with the troops, and make congress grow a spine and actually have to vote and ratify a decleration of war before a single troop is sent over seas to protect any more shit bag countries that are not intelligent enough to quit killing each other in the name of some rediculous god or gods? This would mean we could actually do more with what we already have and not cause taxation to increase.

2) Better pay for soldiers

Why? Look, I served in the US Navy. I may damn good pay to be quite frank. I never HAD to pay for food, or a place to sleep. I VOLUNTEERED to be there to begin with. I had free gym membership. I was able to hop cargo flights on duty free weekends and go almost anywhere in the world we had military for about $25 each way. On top of that, I made around 3k a month, to go to school, and occasionally fix some shit. If war happened, I got x2 pay. If my job in the military had of required me to be shot at, I would have got an additional 1k or so on top of all that each month for hazard duty. I was only a lowly E-3 at the time. I had more money that I was reasonably in need of, as a result, I beefed up an IRA that is now worth around 100k, and I still have 20+ year till retirement, at that IRA is growing at 10ish percent a year...so I should be good.
Yea I knew some inlisted and officers who were habitually broke. I saw them at the bar dropping $20 left and right on alcohol, or at clubs on the weekend, or constantly eatting in resteraunts and blowing thier money.
Why should I support a bill that would cause more taxes on the civilian sector in order to give more people with piss poor money management techniques more money to further mismanage?


3) More training for soldiers

Ok. I can see wanting more training. Is this accross the board? Or just for Spec War forces or certain tech fields? How will this be funded? More taxation? Or are we gonna get rid of some un needed bean counter government jobs to balance things? Keep current spending where it is, reduce overall force size to something that makes sense and it balances as well.

4) Exile Hillary

I hate everything she stands for. More taxes, socialized health care, price caps/regulations on everything and all that other socalist/communist crap, but she has the right to belive and feel however she wants in the US doesnt she? Or are we gonna exile anyone we do nto like now? That's pretty damn amaerican there isnt it. We did it to the natives, we did it to japanese citizens in wwii, hell we are probably gonna do it to muslim immigrants before long even though many here are outstanding and productive citizens. This one scares the shit out of me. How long till I am exihled for not being a dummcrat or a retardican?

5) Exile Bill

See above post, all fits in

6) Strict enforcement of 1st and 2nd amendment rights

So are you gonna put a bill into action to resend all amendments that have adjusted the scope of the first two amendments to make this work? Or is this just a chest beating platform for pandering to constituants in your campaign?
Define what you mean by strict enforcement. I mean if freedom to keep and bear arms is strictly enforced, I could make an argument that if this is the case I should be able to stockile any weapon I can afford and as much of it as I can afford. With no regulations preventing a free market from supplying my demand. And since I am very into guns, I would love to own like 10 of everything and enough ammunition to fight off a small war. Some grenades would be cool to. I personally would not want gasses or radioactive weapons, but mostly cause I don't feel safe handling them. But if some training were available and a reasonable supply of those were avialable I might change my personal stance.

Your enforcement of the first amendment means you have to allow everyone to practice whatever religion they believe in without restrictions if we are enforcing it strictly. Does this mean you will allow satanists to practive animal sacrafices? Or would that be a cruelty to animals issue? Can voodoo santaria practitioners do thier whole thing woth chikens, etc?

7) Pay cuts for President and Congress

I am all for it. But to be honest, I would rather let them keep thier current salaries and just reduce the overall government and let more people go back to work in the free market and produce something usefull for the populace and the econiomy instead of being a burden. Personally I think what the congress and Pres do is very important, and should be paid well for doing it, but I do think not only term limits need to be put in place, but additionally total amount of time spent in civil service should be added. No more being a mayor, then a congressmena, then pres etc...

8) More education spending, national educational standardization focussing on individual skills and technical education

I have heard this one rattled off more and more by people who have absolutly no clue how economics work or any basic understanding of how much money we currently WASTE on education spending. There is absolutely no reason to increase spending on public education. I could write a freeking book on how bad an idea this has already proven itself to be, but many people already have. I will use John Stossel as a great example here. In his book Myths, Lies and Downright Stupidity, he shows where many small private school that bring in less than $5000 per student annually, routinely not only out perfor public schools in ever measurable way, but do it generally for less than HALF of what public schools get for each student, with a mush smaller staff, less "administrative staff, fewer books and all that other stuff.
So if free market private schools can do so much more than the public ones, and do it for a lot less ( I know, some private schools cost a ton, but if we get the government out of it and let a free market create schools, demand will drive price down because competition will force it to be done better for less ) Why the hell would I want to spend more money on something else the government has screwed up. And why would I vote for a pres that just wants to put a bandaide fix on the issue instead of working to fix it all together?
Your gonna need to work harder for my vote, this one and the ones already stated have me terrified of your current platform man.


9) More spending on Law enforcement.

Why? The police department is again voluntary. Noone is forced to become a law enforcement officer. Anyone who goes into law enforcement expecting to make more than 40k a year clearly isnt intelligent enough to be an effective law enforcement officer are they? Why do we need more police anyway? Crime rates have steadly decreassed over the last 20 or so years. So clearly what we have now is enough. Do we need to become a country dominated by jails and churches? I would say more effort should be focused on fixing the court systems and fixing/repealling some of the useless and harmfull laws that exist currently, instead of further increasing spending to further enforce what we already have.

10) Legalize Marijuana and tax the fuck out of it, use those funds to help with education and law enforcement costs.

Got my vote there for the most part. I am all for putting a so called "sin tax" on legalized marijuana. I would rather have that money go towards paying for things like roads or natioanl parks, etc, but using it to fund law enforcement and something like a voucher program for education would be ok with me to. Anything that reduces the exorbant taxation on ALL classes, poor to rich.

11) Child Molestation should be a death penalty offense nationwide

Fine, totally agree so long as the person accused is caught 100% red handed and isnt convicted on circumstancial evidence. To many dads get accused of this BS in courts when bitter divorces are happening who never in any way harmed thier children. I am all for a 100% caught red handed type of conviction going to immediate death penalty. However, the ones with no real evidence I could not justify.

12) Flat Income Tax, no deductions, no shelters, everyone pays their part

Define what you mean a little better. I mean as it stands currently less than 7% of the US populace pays more than 85% of the US total taxation from income taxes. That seems like they are paying more than thier fair share. Maybe get away from the 15 or so taxations that happen on goods and leave income tax exactly where it stands, would be better imo. If we reduced the government by 50% or so, that would mena we wouldnt need nearly as much taxation as we have now as well. This one needs defining better. I can not give my vote here yet without more info.

13) Fuck the rich

Again, another pointless blanket statement. So if I start a home based business that becomes successfull and I achieve a net value of 3 million+, fuck me? I work my butt off and now I am a low life for some reason? Or better yet, my parents were successfull and made a lot of cash, and when they passed away they left me an inheritance and now for some reason I am a low life? So am I a better person if I say to hell with working any more, I will just suck on the taxpayers tit and beocome a lifetime welfare abuser? Or should I just be a drone and never do anything and just stay in the middle ranks cause I was unwilling to take a risk on an idea that could have made me wealthy? Or should I not leave MY wealth to MY children when I die, cause well "fuck them"? What the fuck man?

14) Welfare reform - no more free rides, welfare consists of paid housing and food delivery while attending technical training and seeking work, once employed you cant file again for 2 years unless the industry bottoms out. If you have kids it will pay daycare at a APPROVED center.

Ok. This one I like a lot better than many of the others. How long will I be allowed to attend technical training. I mean technically, Med School is a technical field, and can take 10 or so years to do pre med, med and residency. Will I be able to live on wellfare for 10 years? Or do you mean something like welding school or machinist training? How long am I allowed to be on the program "looking for work" What constitues "looking for work". Man this all seems like to much shade of gray to me. How about NO WELLFARE? how about in America, you get the freedom to fail? Or if we are to have a wellfare system we simplify it a lot. You can be on it 1x your entire adult (18 years old+ ) life, and for no longer than 1 year max. Period. That would get my vote for sure.

15) Border security - machine guns, electrified fences, rabid dogs, and landmines, enough said.

Fine with me there. How are we onna man and fund this extensive project? Are you going to raise my taxes again? Or can we bring home say 1/2 of our current over seas stationed troops and make them border cops? I mean this is a huge tract of land between us and Canada and us and Mexico. Not to mention the pacific and atlantic seaboards that would need to be protects from the people who figure out how to use boats instead of comeing across the land?

16) Immigration - for citizenship require legal aliens to learn to speak and read English to atleast a 4th grade level within 5 years of assuming residence. Sole exception being elderly people who are political refugees or Learning disabled refugees.

I actually have no argument against this one. However, I ask, how will you enforce this one? How will this one be funded? Can we add a slight tax modifier to immigrating peoples' wages to fund it instead of taxing the people who are already here and citizens? What other requirements will you have for gaining citizenship?

17) Family values, if your kids are fucked up, its likely your fault, psychobabble is only so effective, after that is spanking time.

What if I have done an exceptional job as a parent, and a public school puts a bunch of BS into my childs head? Think that sounds funny? There are several studies starting to come out now showing where parents that brought thier children up with very solid family values and morals were essentially forced to do the opposite of thier parents upbringing due to rules/regulations forced on them by public education..California now has rules preventing kids in school from useing the terms "mommy and daddy" for christ sake. additionally, are you now going to tell everyone what is acceptable core values? Would not this go against your earlier platform allowing total strict adhearance to freedom of religion. What if in my religion you show gratitude for a good meal by sayiing "FU and your mom AHole"? I know that is an extreme example, but just making it cartoonish to get the point accross.

18) Land grants for Native Americans in DECENT areas
Next up, reperations to black americans due to slavery? Why should I pay for something in any way that happened before ANYONE in my family ever immigrated here? Why cant NAs just assimilate into modern culture. I mean millions of them already have and are doing great. I know revisionist history is fun and all, but fact of the matter is, that stuff all happened 150+ years ago, I am sorry it happened, but it might be time to just move on really.

19) Fuck the rich

FUCK THE SOCIALISTS!

22) Toughened penalties for violent crime

Get rid of a precedent based legal system rife with lawyers getting rich by getting crimial cases plead down, and go back to system based on I don't know, JUSTICE maybe?

23) We need a REASONABLE definition of what is abuse, a parent spanking their child isnt it, a parent HITTING their child is.

Ok, define what a spank involves. When I spank my child, I use an open hand to the butt. This requires me to actually hit her though cause I can not landd a spank if I do not make contact. Funny thing though. Now that I take away things she likes to play with or do when she does something bad, she seems to behave a hell of a lot better than when I used to spank her for doing whatever bad thing she did. I don't ned to spank anymore, I found something more effective for my daughter. But I agree we need to define how one can spank without hitting a child.

24) Make voting a right earned through service to the community/nation as either a police officer, Soldier, trashman whatever but make people earn it. Then MAYBE it wont be taken for granted.

I used to feel this way. Then I sort of changed my mind. See in this country where I am supposed to be free, I had to earn my right to vote when I took all my citizenship tests almost 20 years ago. I used to think we should require every man and woman in America to have to spend 2 years in the military between the ages of 18 and 25 in order to gain the right to vote.
Then I looked at how against the very idea of personal freedom that is, not to mention, when you were young, say 18 did you give a shit about voting? If like the average american you do not actually cast your first ballot untill almost 55 years old, you would in your youth simeply say some moronic BS like "well my vote doesnt really matter, they will just elect who ever they want to elect, so why should I go play soldier just to get the right to do something that doesnt matter." and guess what, in about 100ish years, we would not actually have anyone able to vote, lol.

25) Tax the ratfuck out of imports

Why? Do you like paying more for 90ish percent of ever thing you buy?

26) FUCK NAFTA

Um, ok? Why?

27) Tax companies that outsource jobs outside the US.
Ok, economics 101 time chief. In the US, everyone has total control over this issue. See in America, we decided by way of voting with our wallets that we do not want to pay $100 for a stupid pair of jeans. However, we all seem to want the company that makes the jeans pay thier employees $50 an hour. So if I want to keep my cost on the goods I sale at a price the market will pay I have to balance some important things.
I have to control my payroll. If I need 500 workers to meet the demand for my jeans in the market, and I pay each of them $50 an hour that comes to a whopping $25000 an hour I pay in wages alone for my staff. Now I am going to need all 500 workers working 40 hour weeks to meet market demand, so that is $1, 000,000 a week in payroll. Now, you are taxing the hell out of me cause I have to get my material from overseas cause the american made material is also made by workers making $50 an hour and costs to damn much, so I buy the cheaper stuff and pay the ungodly tax on it cause it is still considerably cheaper than the local made stuff. But see you also tax me in the form of unemployment tax, sales tax on my supplies, workmans comp insurance, property tax, holy crap my jeans are gonna have to cost damn near $300 a pair now. And then you will tax me when I sale those to by the way tp whatever store is dumb enough to buy them.
So now I am left with a couple of options. I can not afford 500 people making 100k a year operating sewing machins. So I can either A. not produce as many jeans, meaning I only need maybe 20 employees total (now my local community is experienceing a massive lay off). Or I can move to a smart state with no union crap and hire people who will work for 6 or 7 or 8 an hour, so now I can hire my 300 - 500 eople and be able to make my jeans for less than $100 a pair. Or I could say screw all these un neccessary taxed, and rediculous wage requirements from unions and just move my manufacturing facility to Cambodia, where $1 US dollar a day is 4x what the average cambodian makes and ship my manufactured good to anopther facility in a state like TN where no union laws get in the way. There I can hire a bunch of customer service and order filler type of people at $12 an hour and get my good all over the us for $25 a pair, and still turn enough profitt to have investors.

Now if you tax the hell out of me for doing what the market made me do, with a dumb load of governemnt bull crap taxation already in place, I might say screw it and just close my shop and go work for someone else, or just move to another country all together and not employee anyone in this place.

For more fun, you should actually look at the numbers. For every 1 assembly line ro manufacturing job shipped to mexico or guatamala or cambodia currently, 2 - 4 new jobs in the service industries has been created in the US. Service jobs such as admin assistants, service techs, call center CSR people make around 20% more than the average assembly line person (average). So lets see, we get more higher paying jobs and cheaper goods....and yet you want to tax the businesses that do this to the point of extinction?

I hope you wake up from this fallacy of an idea.

28) One world government? I dont fucking think so!

A Men! No argument what so ever there. I wish the states in america had more control and less US government here!

29) Fuck the UN

Finally, I agree were fucking something that deserves a good fucking!

30) Legalize prostitution tax the fuck out of it, require health permits
Ok. I just hope like hell you never have a daughter that despite all your best upbringing realizes one day she can make 5x more cash as a high end hooker than she could have made a a surgeon and comes home and says daddy....I am gonna sale my stuff instead of going to college to become a surgeon. I also hope she never wakes up one night after service 10 or so "clients" and realizes how much she hates her self and ODs on rat poison to end the internal trauma and depression. More importantly to me, I hope neither of my daughters do that, to be honest I dont care if anyone elses does.

34) Terrorist = Automatic death penalty if found guilty, executed within 30 days unless under appeal

Define what a terrorist is, so I can decide whether or not I agree or disagree with this one. Someone who is standing up to our bully governemnent and protesting an hugely unconstitutional policies here could be considered a terrorist under current homeland insecurity laws, or are we talking about jihadists who are attacking the US?

35) Middle Eastern Policy - Play nice or get nuked, dont like it? Fuck you (pushes the button). (Only exception Israel, those fuckers are nuts in a GOOD way)
Hey, sense we are telling other countries how to run thier own country, why not just be comes the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!!! How about this, if you attack us, we will wipe you off the planet, if you leave us alone, you can kill who the hell ever you want in your own country, its yours anyway!

36) North Korean/China Policy - Play nice or get Nuked, You may have them, we have more, Dont like it? Fuck you too! (places ballistic missile sub fleet off china coast in shallow water and pushes THAT button)
See above post

37) Russian Policy - You wanna go back to being communist? Cool, pay us the fucking money you owe us first bitches. Dont like it? (do we see the trend yet?)

See above posts. Not sure what it is you feel russia owes the US, but ok, I like the idea of people in debt paying thier creditors back before doing anything else.

38) Dont like this country? Do something to help make it better or get the fuck out.

A MEN, Who gets to decide what makes it better though? You? Me? Someone else?

42) Have a nice day

Thanks man. You to!

43) Free Sex day Feb 13th of each year all prostitutes are required to service all custmers for free, minimum of three customers per on this day. It will be a National Holiday for all other buisnesses.

Ugh, now we are telling businesses how to run thier business and forcing them to give away product. This is highly unconstitutional.

44) Term limits for congressmen and senators

A MEN, 1 term, 4 years, period.

45) Make Murder a federal offense, if convicted of Murder 1 automatic Death Penalty, executed in 30 days unless under appeal

Again, do away with the precedent based legal system, inact a system based more on justice. I would rather see the guilty party forced into slavery to the family they committed the crime against, with no BS about human rights.

46) Make Rape a federal Offense, if convicted Automatic 5 year sentence at HARD LABOR plus forced castration, castration within 30 days unless under appeal.

Fine, so long as this only applies to people caught 100% red handed. No circumstantial, or he did it to me xxxxx years ago crap.

47) Require a permit for procreation - to obtain permit one must show financial responsibility and pass an IQ test

Wait, now the government gets to tell me when and if I can have a kid? Unconstitutional, you would never get my vote. I want the governemnt out of my fucking bedroom, off my fucking property nd out of my wallet. period. No one on this planet has any right to tell me I can not have a kid, for any reason. Yes I agree to many useless people are procreating, but that is a god given right, I have no authority to take that right from them.

48) Social Security - if you didnt pay in (ie illegal immigrants) you arent getting one god damn cent out, dont like it??? Fuck you, we got rope for that.

Fully agree with you on this one.

49) Executions - Executions should be public and gruesome (hanging) so as to discourage others from the same crime.

I agree

50) Fuck the Geneva convention no one else obeys it why should we?

Fuck all your laws about rape, some people dont obey them so why should I?!? That is attrocious logic man. I agree the Geneva convention is flawed, but the statement you made is just as flawed man.

51) Fuck Amnesty International

No opinion, I dont know much about them, to be honest I just thought that was some of Bono's BS from US?

52) General criminal offenses - all prison terms should be at hard labor, unless it is medically infeasable for the particular inmate. Rather than letting inmates leach off society for years watching free cable, eating, etc and doing nothing make the fuckers EARN that shit. If an inmate wants to do school as well fine, let them do it based on an amended work schedule (no less than 25 hours a week if in classes, if not in school no less than 45 hours a week at labor).

Why should I pay for a criminal to get education? Why should I pay for any of that. Jails should be used as self sustaining production facilities with no outside help from taxpayers. If you are dumb enough to commit a crime and end up there, then you can retire from the job when you die. I dont care about medical conditions preventing you from working. However, The person in jail had better of ended up there cause they were put there for justice, not cause of some dumb law that wasnt constitutional to begin with, or cause of circumstantial evidence and an easily swayed jury. Either 100% guilty or this wont fly.

53) Pheonix Az has a tent city for a jail, I like that idea, and the Mojave desert could make an excellent Tent Federal Prison for those special fucknuts that need extra attention.

Agree, but see last post for qualafiers.

54) Medical care - all LEGAL CITIZENS are guaranteed free medical insurance through the government. Note this DOES NOT apply to resident aliens legal or otherwise.

So you are going t raise my taxes by 30% or more to fund this?
Why would any smart person go through the hell that medical school is, if all they can become is some government lacky?
Why not get rid of medical insurance period, and let the market determine the value and availability of health care? Why do I need the damn government taking yet more cash from me? I hate socialism, its why I immigrated to Democratic Republic where the free market is allowed to do what it does best. Why do you keep insiting on doing unconstitutional things that make us more communist?

Specific discussions -

Military policy
First off the military is understaffed, thus I would like to see an increase in troop stength of 20% along with a 15% pay raise to all grades enlisted and commissioned both. The M-16, along with a number of other light arms are past due for replacement, and this should be addressed as well. Non mission critical support services such as clergy would NOT be increased under my plan, only combat forces and mission critical support. Additionally I would like to see BCT (Boot camp) extended an extra 7 weeks across all branches with much of the additional time spent on infantry skills training and more advanced first aid. Each branch should require all members to additionally attend a urban combat survival training prior to technical training for their specialty. In my opinion this should be another 6 weeks of intense training focussing on surviving in a hostile urban environment in the case of support troops/pilots/etc, in the case of combat troops, especially infantry it should focus on clearing a hostile urban environment. Additionally Military Intelligence should be increased in terms of staffing and equipment should be upgraded in order to aid their mission.


Why do we need more military, we have 100s of 1000s of troops all over the world. Why cant we just bring most of them home and only unleashthem when needed on enemies? I agree on needing to replace some of the front line infantry weapons, but totally disagree on pay increase. It only needs to increase by the amount of standardized inflation each year.

Law Enforcement
Law enforcement should also be recieving raises, as well as more manpower and technological support. Fewer restrictions should be placed on officers at all levels in use of force/deadly force in order to apprehend suspects, especially in violent crime scenerios. Additionally, lets be honest the role of prsons is NOT rehabilitation that seldom works, a prisons role is punishment. Punishment SHOULD be unusual in that it should not be so widely required as it is today, and it should be firm in its intent to be severe enough to strongly discourage or disallow altogether repeat offenses. Thus all inmates should be set on work schedules, health permitting, doing something to pa society back for their crimes. Ideally these jobs should be unpleasant in the extreme (breaking rocks, digging ditches in te desert, Handling HAZMAT waste, etc) so as to drive home that they fucked up. Additionally this approach just might actually convince atleast a few more to actually try and change their lives, since at this point prison would no longer be a summer camp for criminal skills.


No on pay raise, again anyone making money from taxes should be capped at around the natioal average salary range adjusted for inflation annually. I agree and disagree with the freedom of limitation on use of force. sorry been around to many buddies who were cops who were dumb asses who used the badge and gun to intimidate and belittle others. I would rather see fewer mundane and dumb laws the police need to enforce and better legal system put into place personally. Prisons I agree shgould be bascally treated as slave labor so long as the person in it is there cause they are 100% guilty, caught red handed, but then again, in cases of violent acts, I would rather have public execution folloing the trial, same day.

Foreign policy
Guess what, it isnt our job to play global sheriff, however since the rest of the world keeps asking us to (and then bitching about how we do it) lets get the fucking point across. We are THE badasses on the block, we ARE NOT going to be fucked with anymore, and WE ARE THE ONE NATION THAT HAS EVER USED A NUKE IN ANGER.


Funny, I thought we used the nuclear bomb on Japan to simply put end the war. Not sure that was anger, though I am sure everyone was angry. I personally think we should just tell other countries that ask for our help, sorry, were all out....but then again, that level of isolationism is what allowed people like hitler to do so much bad really. I have the knee jerk desire to agree about this, but such a simple "plan" harldy accomadtes the real world man.

Domestic Policy
My domestic policies would be built around the principals this country was founded on of fairness, free enterprise, and individual responsibility as well as individual rights.


Congratulations, you are now a liar of a polotician. You have stated you want to increase taxes, inact unconstitutional laws and policies, and take away rights to privacy by inacting many policies that reduce freedome and make us all slaves to gov taxes! This is what every current polotician, except maybe Ron paul, is doing now. They say I want to increase school spending, then they say they will reduce taxes. Or I will reform immigration, but to do it, I will need to take your homes and businessees away from you to install gov facilities to process illegals.

If you want America to work as intended, you need to get rid of every gov program and get back to having nothing but some represenatives, senators and the pres. A small army and a whole lot of state militia. The governement needs to get as far away from businesses and helathcare as possible, and STOP MAKING LAWS.

Anyway, DB, I like the post, it was fun. Thanks for giving me something to do for 20 min.
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Postby Direblade » February 10th, 2008, 4:13 am

Umm on CSR wages I'd REALLY like to know where youget your MISinformation the average CSR in this area makes about 10-12 bucks an hour starting out, the average assembly person in this area makes 12-20 depending on what they are assembling. Also those service industry jobs you mentioned? Some of them are minimum wage too. For that matter can I point out that help desk jobs are more and more bing outsourced to India, Mexico, etc as well?


As for Education in case you didnt notice I not only said increased funding but also restructure it to create quailty graduates ready to enter the job market.

As for spanking versus hitting I would have thought this common sense, but ok spanking = open hand to the butt, an example of itting would be a fist to the face. There, happy?

On prostitution in point of fact I DO have a daughter and while I dont want to see her doing it, lets face it if she is going to make that decision law is hardly going to stop her anway, all I can do is try to raise her so she WONT make that decision.

Believe I already defined a terrorist in an earlier response

Middle east policy - they did attack us. repeatedly.

Russia's Debt - when communism fell the US government essentially sent Billions of dollars in emergency funds to the fledgling democracy and also tons of food and oter foreign aid.

Procreation permits, unconstitutional yes, but lets face it we're over populated, and one of the fastest growing populations in the US is those wo cant afford to feed their kids.

As for calling me a liar.. the principals I was referring to are equality, justice, and everyone getting a fair shot at either succeeding or fucking up their own life
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Postby Wenceslas » February 10th, 2008, 4:50 am

Some of the shit was fun...

And repeal that dumb ammendment that lets the Pres do as he will with the troops, and make congress grow a spine and actually have to vote and ratify a decleration of war before a single troop is sent over seas to protect any more shit bag countries that are not intelligent enough to quit killing each other in the name of some rediculous god or gods?


Congress cannot and never had the authority to meddle in the command structure of our troops.
Congress DID vote AND ratify our going to war over in Afghanistan AND Iraq. Where were you when they did this? Dire has it exactly right. How many times do we need to be attacked before we should retaliate? Apparently when it causes 2 trillion dollars worth of damage and takes out 3000+ lives.

I mean if freedom to keep and bear arms is strictly enforced, I could make an argument that if this is the case I should be able to stockile any weapon I can afford and as much of it as I can afford.

Yep.

Your enforcement of the first amendment means you have to allow everyone to practice whatever religion they believe in without restrictions

Nope. Enforcement of the 1st Amendment means that the Government shall not dictate to you what religion you may practice. Slightly different wording there hoss…

have heard this one rattled off more and more by people who have absolutly no clue how economics work or any basic understanding of how much money we currently WASTE on education spending. There is absolutely no reason to increase spending on public education.

Agreed. However – most of the stupid rules imposed by the fucking government should be RECINDED.
Like Teddy K’s No Child Left Behind that Pres Bush let him write and the Pres signed.
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Postby Wendiyenie » February 10th, 2008, 4:57 am

Whorace, I am not attacking you either. I just thought I saw some error in your statement.

1) More money for military spending

Why? Our military is currently the largest, most well paid and effective military in the known world. It is stupidly spread out, and is mismanaged like everything else our government does.

British Pay Chart
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0104.html

Exchange Rate for British Pound
http://www.x-rates.com/d/GBP/table.html

US Army Pay Chart
http://www.dfas.mil/army2/militarypaych ... arts35.pdf

The US Military is not THE highest paid military. The british army makes more than the US army in base pay alone. I spent a couple of weeks with the British soldiers in Kosovo and learned a couple of things. View the links and use simple math to get the idea.



2) Better pay for soldiers

Why? Look, I served in the US Navy. I may damn good pay to be quite frank. I never HAD to pay for food, or a place to sleep. I VOLUNTEERED to be there to begin with. I had free gym membership. I was able to hop cargo flights on duty free weekends and go almost anywhere in the world we had military for about $25 each way. On top of that, I made around 3k a month, to go to school, and occasionally fix some shit. If war happened, I got x2 pay. If my job in the military had of required me to be shot at, I would have got an additional 1k or so on top of all that each month for hazard duty. I was only a lowly E-3 at the time. I had more money that I was reasonably in need of, as a result, I beefed up an IRA that is now worth around 100k, and I still have 20+ year till retirement, at that IRA is growing at 10ish percent a year...so I should be good.


http://www.dfas.mil/army2/militarypaych ... arts35.pdf

I do agree that US Military is paid reasonably well. However, looking at the chart the BASE pay for an E-3 is under 2K a month. I know the Navy and Army are not the same entities, but the pay scale is the same. I was an E-4 for a while and the most I made was 2K a month, then I was promoted. Maybe from BAH and other stuff you could get close to 3K a month. My only argument is that why not pay these guys and gals more? We pay millions to some guy that hurls a ball, why not give a coule hundred more to a guy or gal that hurls a grenade?
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Re: me for Prez 2012

Postby heffling » February 10th, 2008, 4:36 pm

Direblade wrote: 1) More money for military spending


To what end? First you need to fix the piss poor spending in our current military before you go about giving them more money to mis-manage.

2) Better pay for soldiers


Why? They already get free room and board. That's easily a thousand dollars a month perk right there. They also get a free education worth as much as a hundred thousand dollars once they leave the military. And it's not like they are being drafted.

What we need to do is reduce our overseas presence, for example, in Japan. This will greatly relieve our military manpower problem.

3) More training for soldiers


Soldiers are some of the highest trained personell in any facet of the U.S. Many technicians leave the military without a desire to go to college, and can find work immediately based on their military experience. In what way will additional training add value to our military? Are they undertrained currently? I know several folks from different branches and have never heard this before.

4) Exile Hillary

5) Exile Bill


This is a joke, right? We have a constitution and laws which state under what conditions someone may be exiled. As far as I am aware, they haven't been convicted of any violations to warrant such statements. We are a nation of laws, keep it that way.

6) Strict enforcement of 1st and 2nd amendment rights


Too vague, define strict enforcement. For example, would you let someone have a bazooka under the 2nd ammendment? If so, why?

For any job that I may want a bazooka for, there is either a better tool for the job, or it is being used illegitimately. Being that the only situations which a bazooka would be best suited for are illegal, why allow anyone to have one?

7) Pay cuts for President and Congress


To what end? The president and congress gain far more of their apparent income from living expenses, transportation, and other perks, than they do from their salaries. And, assuming we have a hundred million or so in their combined salaries, that's a drop in the bucket compared to overall government pay.

Reduce unneeded positions in the general government and you will save much more than that.

8) More education spending, national educational standardization focussing on individual skills and technical education


National standardization of skills is a bad idea. Especially given the speed that skill sets are outdated these days. Again, before throwing more money at education, let's look at getting better use out of our current expenditures.

9) More spending on Law enforcement.


Get more out of your current spending. Law enforcement officers, like the military, get alot of perks. I've seen many times an officer go to Wal-Mart in their patrol car to buy groceries, for example.

10) Legalize Marijuana and tax the fuck out of it, use those funds to help with education and law enforcement costs.


I agree, except that it won't work. I can easily grow all the Marijuana I need in my own back-yard or house, so it won't get taxed.

11) Child Molestation should be a death penalty offense nationwide


I agree, except you will be stamping all over states rights.

12) Flat Income Tax, no deductions, no shelters, everyone pays their part


Other than simplfying the system, and putting several business and hundreds of thousands out of work, what will this accomplish?

13) Fuck the rich


What?

14) Welfare reform - no more free rides, welfare consists of paid housing and food delivery while attending technical training and seeking work, once employed you cant file again for 2 years unless the industry bottoms out. If you have kids it will pay daycare at a APPROVED center.


What about the disabled or handicapped that are incapable of taking care of themselves? What about the single mother who's father is a deadbeat, but she isn't, and she wants to make something of her self?

I agree, cut out the corruption and the people who work at McD's once a year for a week to keep mooching off the system, but there are people who need it.

15) Border security - machine guns, electrified fences, rabid dogs, and landmines, enough said.


Yes, because your ancestors were never immigrants. Immigrants are an important part of the US Economy. What we need to do is reform the system so that it is more efficient, and will not force people to act illegal just to get into the US.

Let em give you an example, my wife, Jette (Smolfsine) is from Denmark. For her to get her greencard (which has NOT been approved permanently yet) has already cost us in government fees over 1500 dollars. That's not including over 500$ in costs for transportation, hotels, etc.

And this is for my legal wife. Why is it like this?

16) Immigration - for citizenship require legal aliens to learn to speak and read English to atleast a 4th grade level within 5 years of assuming residence. Sole exception being elderly people who are political refugees or Learning disabled refugees.


We don't have a national language. Additionally, many who come to the US to work as immigrants do so for low paying jobs, in which they work long hours. Given that, how do you expect them to find time to learn to read and speak english at that level? Keep in mind, they may not even know how to read their own language.

17) Family values, if your kids are fucked up, its likely your fault, psychobabble is only so effective, after that is spanking time.


What?

18) Land grants for Native Americans in DECENT areas


What does this hope to accomplish? I didn't force the native americans off their traditional land. Are we going to offer reparations to those who are descended from slaves? Given them an easy life doesn't balance out giving someone else a hard life.

19) Fuck the rich

20) Exile Hillary

21) Exile Bill


Repitition must make something true!

22) Toughened penalties for violent crime


Penalties for crime does not act as a significant deterent to criminals. It primarily deters law abiding citizens.

23) We need a REASONABLE definition of what is abuse, a parent spanking their child isnt it, a parent HITTING their child is.


What's the difference between a spank and a hit?

24) Make voting a right earned through service to the community/nation as either a police officer, Soldier, trashman whatever but make people earn it. Then MAYBE it wont be taken for granted.


You are in a social contract with the government. The contract is that you follow the laws, and you get to have a voice in the decision making process through voting. This is why criminals are denied the right to vote.

We earn our right to vote by following the laws. If we don't earn it that way, then we are living in a facist government, as we would be having arbitrary requirements applied to us with no say.

25) Tax the ratfuck out of imports


Let's crash the economy, always a good idea.

26) FUCK NAFTA


What?

27) Tax companies that outsource jobs outside the US.


Let's crash the economy, always a good idea. If we make it more expensive for a US company to outsource jobs, then they will just outsource the entire damned company. Eventually, the US won't have any local businesses.

28) One world government? I dont fucking think so!

29) Fuck the UN


What?

30) Legalize prostitution tax the fuck out of it, require health permits


It won't fly. Especially since this will lead to other problems, such as an increased divorce rate.

31) Fuck the UN

32) Exile Bill

33) Exile Hillary


Repitition

34) Terrorist = Automatic death penalty if found guilty, executed within 30 days unless under appeal


Anyone who does something that I would consider terrorism is engaged in mass murder, and should be punished accordingly. Terrorism in and of itself is just a political hotword, and needs to be used less.

And of course, noone appeals the death sentence...

35) Middle Eastern Policy - Play nice or get nuked, dont like it? Fuck you (pushes the button). (Only exception Israel, those fuckers are nuts in a GOOD way)

36) North Korean/China Policy - Play nice or get Nuked, You may have them, we have more, Dont like it? Fuck you too! (places ballistic missile sub fleet off china coast in shallow water and pushes THAT button)

37) Russian Policy - You wanna go back to being communist? Cool, pay us the fucking money you owe us first bitches. Dont like it? (do we see the trend yet?)

38) Dont like this country? Do something to help make it better or get the fuck out.


Yeah, good foreign policy. If we don't like you, we blow you up. I see why you want more military spending.

39) Fuck the UN

40) Exile Bill

41) Exile Hillary

42) Have a nice day


Repitition

43) Free Sex day Feb 13th of each year all prostitutes are required to service all custmers for free, minimum of three customers per on this day. It will be a National Holiday for all other buisnesses.


I know this is a joke, but if taken seriously, you're requiring an industry to offer their services for free, when few others are.

44) Term limits for congressmen and senators


To what end? This can easily cripple the government, as every two years you'll get a new crop of politicians who don't know how our systems work. This, as I see it, will lead to an even stronger bueracracy.

45) Make Murder a federal offense, if convicted of Murder 1 automatic Death Penalty, executed in 30 days unless under appeal


Yeah, because noone appeals murder sentences...

46) Make Rape a federal Offense, if convicted Automatic 5 year sentence at HARD LABOR plus forced castration, castration within 30 days unless under appeal.


Forced castration is stupid. Rape is frequently cried out and used as a tool against the innocent (Look at Astarin, should he be castrated?).

Maybe multiple rape, but keep in mind, rape is a sexist crime. That is, how many times does a man declare rape and have it upheld in court?

47) Require a permit for procreation - to obtain permit one must show financial responsibility and pass an IQ test


Yes, eugenics at work.

48) Social Security - if you didnt pay in (ie illegal immigrants) you arent getting one god damn cent out, dont like it??? Fuck you, we got rope for that.


Make social security optional. I should be in charge of my finances.

49) Executions - Executions should be public and gruesome (hanging) so as to discourage others from the same crime.


Demonstrated not to work and feed a mob mentality.

50) Fuck the Geneva convention no one else obeys it why should we?


There has to be something that seperates us from terrorists and defines terrorism.

51) Fuck Amnesty International


What?

52) General criminal offenses - all prison terms should be at hard labor, unless it is medically infeasable for the particular inmate. Rather than letting inmates leach off society for years watching free cable, eating, etc and doing nothing make the fuckers EARN that shit. If an inmate wants to do school as well fine, let them do it based on an amended work schedule (no less than 25 hours a week if in classes, if not in school no less than 45 hours a week at labor).


Agreed, except that hard labor by prisoners is less efficient than any other way we have. The best option is to have them run farms, where they grow all of their own food AND provide staples such as corn to be used to feed mini-turbines that power the prison. If the prisoners don't make enough food or spare crops for power, they go without.

53) Pheonix Az has a tent city for a jail, I like that idea, and the Mojave desert could make an excellent Tent Federal Prison for those special fucknuts that need extra attention.


Torture is always a good way to demonstrate our moral superiority.

54) Medical care - all LEGAL CITIZENS are guaranteed free medical insurance through the government. Note this DOES NOT apply to resident aliens legal or otherwise.


Legalize medical care such as in Canada or Denmark. More rapidly approve medications, and work with world governments (especially europe) on joint approvals of medication.

Smolf was taking a medication for her blood pressure when she came to the US. The medicine isn't available here, despite the fact that she's been taking it for a decade, because the FDA hasn't approved. That's ridiculous.

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Postby Wendiyenie » February 10th, 2008, 7:04 pm

Why? They already get free room and board. That's easily a thousand dollars a month perk right there. They also get a free education worth as much as a hundred thousand dollars once they leave the military. And it's not like they are being drafted


WHen I was stationed at Fort Lewis, WA, I could not live on post. One reason was I was not an E-4 or above at the time. I was a Private First Class. While we are given money to live off post, the money I recieved was less than my rent. I lived in a skimpy 2 bedroom one bath apartment, not really worth the $600 I paid per month. I got $500 for rent. So, no, I really didn't get free room and board. What makes me laugh is people talk about the military and how great the pay is and benefits, when in fact they know very little.

Where is this hundred thousand dollars free education????? I am in school right now and only get my GI Bill. I get three years worth of it. I am going to get $50,000 for college, and have half of it used now. I know the military does offer some outrageous amounts of money for college to some, but the vast majority of everyone doesn't get that money.

Heff,
I am not trying to be rude, it just seems you have some information that is not kosher. It really pisses me off when people talk about how great soldiers have it, and they haven't lived in our shoes.
Last edited by Wendiyenie on February 10th, 2008, 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wendiyenie » February 10th, 2008, 7:22 pm

Quote:
3) More training for soldiers


Soldiers are some of the highest trained personell in any facet of the U.S. Many technicians leave the military without a desire to go to college, and can find work immediately based on their military experience. In what way will additional training add value to our military? Are they undertrained currently? I know several folks from different branches and have never heard this before


That is the biggest crock I have ever heard. When I got out of the Army, I could not find a job to save my life because I was "undertrained". A mechanic in the Army doesn't get ASC certified. I was also told at one place that they didn't like to hire military people because we are too "regimented". I got 9 weeks of bootcamp and 5 months of AIT. All the rest was OTJ, which didn't matter anyway because, what tanks am I going to fix in the civilian world? Also, the wheeled vehicles I worked on are nothing like the civilian counterparts. Barely any electrical components are on the Army Vehicles. The civilian trucks have on board computers and the like. So, no, I was not trained to do the civilian job.

And I know you are going to talk about "well, I was just meaning army training." Yeah, Army training is real good, NOT. I was there, I know what happens. We run out of resources for things. We didn't have the training tools we needed most of the time we did have training days. We even had times when we couldn't replace engines or transmissions in vehicles because the unit didn't have the money to buy these parts with.
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Postby Xanai » February 10th, 2008, 8:22 pm

Congress cannot and never had the authority to meddle in the command structure of our troops.

The Congress shall have Power...

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


That's all Article 1, Section 8 stuff regarding the powers Congress has. It appears Congress does have, and has always had, the power to meddle in the command structure of our troops.

Congress DID vote AND ratify our going to war over in Afghanistan AND Iraq. Where were you when they did this?

Congress doesn't have the authority to do what you're suggesting. Congress has the power to declare war, not send military troops to "authorized engagements." Again, Article 1, Section 8:

Congressshall have the power ... [t]o declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

Please show me where Congress has the authority to grant the President the ability to send troops to a foreign country without a declaration of war. Where's the DoW for Afghanistan / Iraq?

Dire has it exactly right. How many times do we need to be attacked before we should retaliate? Apparently when it causes 2 trillion dollars worth of damage and takes out 3000+ lives.

I don't think Whorace was suggesting we not retaliate, however America is a Constitutional Republic - not a Tyranny. The Congress / President / US Forces are not allowed to break the law because it is inconvenient.

If you think that they are, then what happens when President Bush doesn't want to give up his office because Barak Obama, who (as an example) is legally elected.... because Obama won't continue the war on Terror the "right" way. Bush then declares himself President for life, because he's got to "fight Terrorism." He then dissolves Congress because "they're soft on Terrorists", bans any political opposition and at the barrel of a gun, forces everyone to attend a Baptist Church (of their "choosing").

Once you break one law and say "it's ok" then you can't come back and complain when more laws are broken that you don't agree with.

Nope. Enforcement of the 1st Amendment means that the Government shall not dictate to you what religion you may practice. Slightly different wording there hoss…

I worship Donar, God of Thunder! I need blood and sacrifices for my lord! Who are you to tell me that I can't worship Donar the way he wishes to be worshipped. All I need is a giant place to build a massive fire and 3 or 4 people to throw into the pyre - someone like you!

Yeah, the Government shall not dictate what religion you may practice... that's a great idea.

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Postby Whorace Powers » February 11th, 2008, 12:22 am

As for Education in case you didnt notice I not only said increased funding but also restructure it to create quailty graduates ready to enter the job market.

We can restructure and create plenty of qualafied workers right now, without spending one more penny. We do not need to increase taxation and spending. More money is simply not the answer. If it were, places like Sweden, Denmark and hell even Germany wouldnt be outscoring the pants off US kids in science, math and damn near everything else with 1/4 of our budget. Get rid of Gov controls on education and let the market fix things naturally.

But keep in mind, public education highschool are not currently designed to prep people to work. The goal of modern public school sis to prep kids for college. College or trade/vocational schools are supposed to prep the student for work. This is a severly overlooked point in many "more funding for schools" arguments.

Umm on CSR wages I'd REALLY like to know where youget your MISinformation

I get my information from my job actually. I am a staffing consultant, and have access to one of the largest statistic databases in the US due to my position. The company I work for is actually the largest staffing company and is additionally an international staffing agency. We keep incredibly large databases of statistics garnered from real world, not theoretical, sources. We also provide much of this information to the board of labor and statistics, colleges and damn near any organization that is willing to pay for it. We use it to help track market trends in order to stay ahead of our competitors.
Additionally, I personally staff people for everything from Janitors to CFOs of every size imaginable companies. Guess what, your area may be an anomalie, and in some union controlled states, yea assembly line people are flat out grossly overpaid for thier jobs. In non union free market states, assembly line people generally earn 20 to 40% less than the average wage for a CSR rep at any given "experience/time in job" rankings.
Service industry jobs also include things such as Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses, Auto Mechanics, Trash Pickup, etc though. Which means that yea, some guy with 6 monyths in job at the local call center prolly only makes 8 or 9 an hour here, though I could get them more probably, but the whole service industry factored together comparative to the whole assembly line industry factored together means someone who gets training in service fields WILL MAKE MORE ON AVERAGE. Now, where does your MIS - information come from hoss?

the average CSR in this area makes about 10-12 bucks an hour starting out, the average assembly person in this area makes 12-20 depending on what they are assembling.

Ok, so in your given area, the market may be different. In TN, the average assembly line job starts at minimum wage and goes up to about $25 an hour for a place like MAGNA, that makes car parts...course those guys all get laid off for about 3ish months each year, so adjusted for lost time, 10 - 12 an hour really. My average CSR person for my lowest paying position I staff for is around $9 to start and tops around 100k a year for a couple of the companies I staff for. However, according the national average, assembly/ manufacturing averages around 25k a year in the US, where as service industry jobs average around 40k a year. So yea, I could keep doing the same old thing, or I could learn Microsoft word, and excel and move up in pay and get a much less dangeous job...

Also those service industry jobs you mentioned? Some of them are minimum wage too. For that matter can I point out that help desk jobs are more and more bing outsourced to India, Mexico, etc as well?

Yea, some are minimum wage.....some are 500k+ a year...it is dependant on how much debt you are willing to incur getting started to pay for school I guess. But here is the real difference man, assembly line jobs are in the manufacturing sector, and have some sever limitations in regard to salary cap. And once you are at the top of your field, the best you can hope for is to become a supervisor or manager in some regards. Only a handfull can get to that point in any company. In the service industries, it is considerably easier to move laterally and upward overall. You could start out as a call center person while in nursing school/CNA/RN training, then once done with becoming a nurse and in the field a few years you can move on to med school if you wanted, and go from making 8 or 9 an hour to making 100k a year plus. And guess what, medical jobs are not being outsourced.
Additionally, yes a lot of call center CSR positions were outsorced, but the free market has put a major slow on that trend. To many customers complainied about non english speaking mid eastern CSR people, and companies have created more and more positions in the US. Companies are just being smarter about it now. They are putting these places as far the F away from NY, NJ, CA and other unionized states with enflated average incomes, and putting them in lower taxed states with lower average incomes.

Try again, but thanks for playing.

Believe I already defined a terrorist in an earlier response

You may have man, I simply did not read everyone's posts. I will come back to this one after reading more of the other posts. I was just really attempting to keep this between you and I, discussion wise.

Russia's Debt - when communism fell the US government essentially sent Billions of dollars in emergency funds to the fledgling democracy and also tons of food and oter foreign aid.

Ok, I don't know jack about this one. So I will have to be educated on this one, but sounds just like some dumb crap we would do.

As for calling me a liar.. the principals I was referring to are equality, justice, and everyone getting a fair shot at either succeeding or fucking up their own life

For the purpose of clarity, I am not calling YOU personally a Liar. I am calling your platform a liar of a politician. See you personally DB, I have no clue if you are a liar or not, so I make no statement at you as one. However, the vast majority of your platform statements are in fact contradictory to your statement of "My domestic policies would be built around the principals this country was founded on of fairness, free enterprise, and individual responsibility as well as individual rights."

Like I said earlier in the very first line, do not take offense to my posts on your platform as persoanl attacks on you, they are simply me pointing out things I either agree with or disagree with from your political platform.
I get into this thing a lot. I sort of got hung up on political science classes all through college, and am still taking a lot of them simply because they are fun, and it is neat learning how misinformed the average citizen is, including the ones who think they know what they are talking about, lol.
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Postby Whorace Powers » February 11th, 2008, 12:43 am

Congress cannot and never had the authority to meddle in the command structure of our troops.
Congress DID vote AND ratify our going to war over in Afghanistan AND Iraq. Where were you when they did this? Dire has it exactly right. How many times do we need to be attacked before we should retaliate? Apparently when it causes 2 trillion dollars worth of damage and takes out 3000+ lives.


Actually, Wence, for once bro you are wrong. Ill have to do some digging, but the way things work now is vastly different than what it was prior to WWII. There have been numerous bills that slid through congress following WWII that have given the president the ability to wage wars without ever having the congress declare an official war. And Afganistan is technically a "conflict" not a declared war as far as I know. You may be right, and if you are it will be the first actual true declaration of war the US has been in since WWII.

War Powers Resolution of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148) limited a lot of what the pres could do when initially entering into any confrontations, but all of that was essentially whittled away during reagan and Bush SR. terms through several smaller bills, and Bush Jr has basically done what ever he wanted due to the dep of homeland defense.

The US has officially only declared war 5 times, The war of 1812, The Mex-American War, The Spanish American War, WWI and WWII. EVERYTHING ELSE has been a "conflict" regardless of the monocore "war" on whatever tagged onto it, cause no congressman wants to have the fact they voted for the us to go to war riding on thier schoulders. It means they would never be able to be re elected to the house or senate.

Yes we have had congress approve the use of force in numerous "conflicts", but the congress intentionally avoids declaring war with another country because voteers wont oust them over conflicts generally, where as the use of a declaration of war gets people kicked out of the easy life in DC.

So sorry, but unless you are imagining things that havent happened, you are wrong, or you are arguing something different than I am.

Quote:
Your enforcement of the first amendment means you have to allow everyone to practice whatever religion they believe in without restrictions


Nope. Enforcement of the 1st Amendment means that the Government shall not dictate to you what religion you may practice. Slightly different wording there hoss…

Ok, so I said you (the Governement in referring to DB platform for presedintial election) have to allow for everyone the freedom to practice thier religion without restrictions, if we are going to be strictly enforcing the 1st amendment. You just said, the governement can not dictate to me what religion I choose to believe in. So yea I used the word practice, you said can not dictate to me what to believe in.
I concede that yes this is a slightly different wording....Show me that they mean something different, when put into context with the statement "Strict enforcement of the 1st amendment."

Agreed. However – most of the stupid rules imposed by the fucking government should be RECINDED.
Like Teddy K’s No Child Left Behind that Pres Bush let him write and the Pres signed.


I agree almost everything our Gov has done in regards to education has been dumb and needs to be recinded...or better yet, gotten rid of all together.
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Postby Whorace Powers » February 11th, 2008, 1:02 am

Whorace, I am not attacking you either. I just thought I saw some error in your statement.

I don't get offended or worked up about posts on message boards, so no worries. I love debate as well, so by all means, If I make an error, point it out and Ill argue with you :)

The US Military is not THE highest paid military. The british army makes more than the US army in base pay alone. I spent a couple of weeks with the British soldiers in Kosovo and learned a couple of things. View the links and use simple math to get the idea.

You have a major sample flaw in that post. First, right now the british pound v/s the US dollar allows for the British military to appear better paid. What happens when the US Dollar is worth more than the british pound though? Do we become the better paid military then? Its a simple sample flaw, but it makes a radical difference. Its like comparing the horsepower of a truck to the horsepower of a sports car. It looks neat on paper, but makes no sense. One is geared for torque and towing, the other for speed...
Unless I am missing something. All things considered such as standards of living, and sheer size (what are we now, 12 to 1 in terms of number of enlisted over the number of british enlisted? I am guessing there to be frank. We have a considerably larger ground force, navy and air force than any nation except China. And our average soldier has a considerable better quality of life (pay, Room and board, food) than anyone else when all things are factored in, as far as I can tell.
Additionally, your sample comparison is flawed due to though the brit soldier may have more pay theoretically, they also have a much higher cost of living and taxation than the average US soldier. These are all things that will effect the sample groups.

I do agree that US Military is paid reasonably well. However, looking at the chart the BASE pay for an E-3 is under 2K a month. I know the Navy and Army are not the same entities, but the pay scale is the same. I was an E-4 for a while and the most I made was 2K a month, then I was promoted. Maybe from BAH and other stuff you could get close to 3K a month. My only argument is that why not pay these guys and gals more? We pay millions to some guy that hurls a ball, why not give a coule hundred more to a guy or gal that hurls a grenade?

Yup, pay for any E3 is the same regardless of branch. I know I had additional pay coming from different things since I got really involved that would have effected and raised my overall pay, so using myself as an example may have been wrong there.
I still argue though, that there is no reason to increase taxes on the populace to give everyone a raise. If we can give soldiers better pay by getting rid of unneccessary gov agencies, then fine. However, I still say, since service is strictly voluntary, there is no real reason to do it. Soldiers know what to expect before they stand in MEPS and swear in. If the pay is not good enough, people would simply stop enlisting, untill the military raised wages. The market would make it happen. People are still enlisting and overall the military is HUGE, so there is simply no reason to.
Soldier get FREE room and board on bases. They get FREE meals, 3 of them every day on bases. When you factor that in with how much they make in additional pay, I'd say things are pretty nice.
Granted front line soldier have it a bit more rough, but we are not at war/conflict very much/often realistictly.
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Postby Wendiyenie » February 11th, 2008, 2:53 am

Now that is where we totally agree, Whorace. Do away with certain things, and NOT raise taxes. You and I both know the military spends tons of money on things they don't need. I guess that reflects back on the statement I made to Heff about training tools. The military puts money where they will and not where it is needed. We both know, too, that single people living in barracks get 3 free meals. I am not single, so I have to pay for my food. Granted, I got $250 a month for it. Will that feed a family of 3? Not well. Also, the guys in the barracks don't always eat in the Mess Hall. They should, as to save money, but they won't.

I guess I am actually asking a question after all this. What can the government/military cut out to give soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines more money?

Oh, and I see what you mean talking about the different tax levels and cost of living. I reckon they would need to be paid more to live equally. I guess I just get aggravated when people say soldiers make a lot of money, cause they don't. When I go back in as an RN, I won't make near as much as my civilian counterparts, but I just want to go back in. That is my choice.

Little bit of something learned from being in the military: If something makes sence, it isn't from the military. If it doesn't , then it is from the military.
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Postby Pressto » February 11th, 2008, 5:30 pm

The US Military is not THE highest paid military. The british army makes more than the US army in base pay alone.


Maybe he should have said take home pay, because with the tax rate in the UK they don't get to keep as much of the money. Also the cost of living in the UK is a lot higher then most of the places here in the US.
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Postby heffling » February 11th, 2008, 5:41 pm

Wendiyenie wrote: I lived in a skimpy 2 bedroom one bath apartment, not really worth the $600 I paid per month. I got $500 for rent. So, no, I really didn't get free room and board.


Did you need that second bedroom? Could you have found a cheaper place to live?

Could you eat at the cafeteria at your base? If yes, how much did it cost you per meal to eat there?

Where is this hundred thousand dollars free education????? I am in school right now and only get my GI Bill. I get three years worth of it. I am going to get $50,000 for college, and have half of it used now. I know the military does offer some outrageous amounts of money for college to some, but the vast majority of everyone doesn't get that money.


I've heard a hundred thousand from ex-military I met in college. Fifty thousand is still damned good money towards your education. I didn't join the military, so I had to pay for my education myself.

I am not trying to be rude, it just seems you have some information that is not kosher. It really pisses me off when people talk about how great soldiers have it, and they haven't lived in our shoes.

I don't think soldiers have it great, or else I would have enlisted. Getting shot at isn't my thing. I do think you are reasonably (not excessively) compensated for your work, however.

Look at what you get:

1) Your normal salary, doubled if in a hazardous duty.
2) Living expense compensation
3) Training while in the military
4) GI Bill and other potential scholarships

Let's assume you make 20k a year at your rate (maybe high or low, I'm not sure how to read the pay scale tables I found), and you are enlisted for four years.

This works out to be 1666.67$ a month for normal salary. Plus 500$ for rent, plus 250$ for food.

So, now we're at 2416.67 a month.

I'll ignore the value of six months worth of training, as most jobs will have some sort of a training program.

50k worth of GI bill over 48 months is just over 1k a month. So now we're at 3458.33 a month in compensation. That's pretty damned good, especially compared to that guy working at McD's for a thousand bucks a month.
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