me for Prez 2012

[heffling]

Whorace,

I believe that it was after or during the Vietnam Conflict that Congress passed a law limiting the president from deploying troops overseas for more than 60 days with out the approval of Congress.

Wendy,

Look at the Big Mac Index and compare the US to the UK. In the US, we pay an average of $3.41 for a big mac. In the Europe, the cost is is 4.17. In Demark it is over 5$. What this means is that for the same "apparent" income based on exchange rates, you get a much different cost of living.

In fact, if you look at it this way, then someone from England will have to make 20% more than you do just to keep the same standard of living.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displa ... id=9448015

[Direblade]

Oh yah its great pay to be separated from your family (potentially for years at a time), shot at, work 12 hour days or more frequently, and keep in mind your training is WORTHLESS outside the military. MP's cant just become licensed Cops without still going to the police academy (and usually atleast 2 years of college to boot), Computer techs cant get jobs on retirement without either a degree, or the same certs which any other civilian needs regardless experience, and oh wait, GI Bill last I checked wont pay for certs, same goes for mechanics, aircraft mechanics, etc.

Heffling get all your facts before posting. I was in the Army, Wendi was in the Military my father was CAREER Air Force. Even in peacetime you can and are frequently separated from your family because of assignments regardless of which branch you're in. As for hazardous duty pay? yah it's there, but not all dangerous assignments get it, there are cases where an assignment is dangerous and doesn't qualify.

Also since separation due to assignment is fairly common lets look at a worst case possibility, and one my father had to look at when he was in (though I grant in his case he was relatively high rank at the time). We are going to do this as worst case though so you are only an E-3. You are stationed in a foreign country, your family is stateside. you have a wife and kids, there isnt room for you in barracks due to overcrowding on base barracks is limited to E-4 and up. Your family has to have an apt OR HOUSE, minimum 2 BEDROOM stateside plus you have to have a place where you're at. Then you have food expenses, etc just like anyone else on 2 places at the same time. This does happen, and you dont get an extra housing allowance for the extra residence. Care to tell me how well paid a soldier is in that scenerio?

[Xanai]

I believe that it was after or during the Vietnam Conflict that Congress passed a law limiting the president from deploying troops overseas for more than 60 days with out the approval of Congress.

The old War Powers act. That's some dodgy legislation if I've ever seen any. Any piece of legislation that is underneath the Constitution cannot say stuff like "such forces shall be removed by the President if the Congress so directs by concurrent resolution"; Congress can't be the Commander-in-Chief by circumlocution.

However, I liked how you did the military pay - that was a good way of describing it.

Xanai!

[Xanai]

Oh yah its great pay to be separated from your family (potentially for years at a time), shot at, work 12 hour days or more frequently

It's awful that we force people into such a horrific job. There ought to be a law giving people the freedom to choose whether or not they want to join the military...

and keep in mind your training is WORTHLESS outside the military.

Because, as we all know, internal combustion engines don't work the same if they're not in a war zone (mechanic), similarly languages change depending on whether or not someone likes you (language op / translator).

MP's cant just become licensed Cops without still going to the police academy (and usually atleast 2 years of college to boot),

No but they can work for Security companies like Wackenhut here in Tenn. Starting pay for one of their guys is @ $26 an hour with preference given to those already cleared for L clearance or higher (Secret Clearance I think is it's equivalent).

Your family has to have an apt OR HOUSE, minimum 2 BEDROOM stateside plus you have to have a place where you're at.

Why does it have to be a minimum 2 bedroom? Can the military legally keep you from living on base without giving you a housing stipend? Evidence of that please? Does the military not offer a chow hall? I thought that those places were either free or really cheap?

This does happen, and you dont get an extra housing allowance for the extra residence. Care to tell me how well paid a soldier is in that scenerio?

Of course it happens, but the military isn't responsible for their soldiers making bad choices. Popped out a couple babies with out an education or prospects for a good job? Sure, join the military and we'll pay an unskilled and uneducated person $90,000 a year!

Being a soldier is an honourable profession, no one said it would ever be an extremely profitable profession. Same with lots of jobs.

[Wenceslas]

Military.

I was USAF 1978-1982.
I was a Programmer for NORAD. I've only done this new job the USAF trained me in for 22+ years. So I guess military training is worthless.

Some might be - after all not much call for manning civilian owned 155mm howitzers, eh sport?

However - when you are married and in the military - there is one thing you MUST remember: the Military is NOT there to make your family happy, provide for your family, or be a nice 8-5 job.

Sorry, but there it is. The military does have some concessions to married military - I think yer fuckin lucky to get that much.

War changes that completely. Take me, my secondary MOS was Road Toad. I learned to drive front-end loaders, ten-ton dumptrucks, cats, steel-wheel rollers, and (my all time fav) street sweepers. We all had this secondary MOS to take over normal base duties when they deployed the Civil Engineering forces to war zones.

So Whorace (and anyone else), your sob story falls on sympathetic deaf ears. Those people that married a military member had to be a special person to hold together a marriage that the military will try it's best (not deliberately of course) to break. Having children is doubly hard.
But I only hold respect for those that made it work.

None at all for those that expected life to be handed to them on a platter.

[Direblade]

Xanai in the scenerio I presented you have a wife and KIDS that requires a 2 bedroom, possibly 3 depending on how many kids and local laws. The military can keep you from living on base if there are too many people already there for the available housing facilities. Yes they give you a stipend for this it USUALLY doesnt cover the full rent amount on one place, much less two if you are separated from our family due to a duty assignment.

As fr the mess hall, yes the soldier/airman/seaman himself can eat there.

As for the training being worthless in the civilian world it usually is. Being a mechanic in the military means shit when you apply for a mechanics job in a civilian shop, without a ASC cert, which the military DOEN'T give most shops wont hire you regardless experience, this is true in most fields. You may have the knowlege, but if its any kind of technical/mechanical field the experience means shit without the CIVILIAN certification.

Even for private security MOST states require a state certification to work armed security. Granted the classes for it may be painfully simple, but you still have to take them. I used to e an armed guard after I first got out, it required taking a course, passing a written exam, and shooting to qualify in this state. Those state requirements can only be ignored on Federal property (ie a military installation).

As for your sniping little smart ass remark about requiring people volunteer, its true, our military is a volunteer force, however for people to be penalized for protecting YOUR ass and that of every other citizen in this coutry, and you to FAVOR that penalization, which is what you're doing, is ridiculous. The facts are that any soldier in a technical field gets paid a hell of a lot less than a civilian counterpart, frequently works longer hours, may be separated from his family at any time for years at a time, and will still have to get the civilian certifications when he gets out to do the exact same job in civilian life, regardless the fact he may have a decade or more of experience doing the job. The willingness of soldiers to volunteer for this should e rewarded, not punished.

Military.

I was USAF 1978-1982.
I was a Programmer for NORAD. I've only done this new job the USAF trained me in for 22+ years. So I guess military training is worthless.

Some might be - after all not much call for manning civilian owned 155mm howitzers, eh sport?

However - when you are married and in the military - there is one thing you MUST remember: the Military is NOT there to make your family happy, provide for your family, or be a nice 8-5 job.

Sorry, but there it is. The military does have some concessions to married military - I think yer fuckin lucky to get that much.

War changes that completely. Take me, my secondary MOS was Road Toad. I learned to drive front-end loaders, ten-ton dumptrucks, cats, steel-wheel rollers, and (my all time fav) street sweepers. We all had this secondary MOS to take over normal base duties when they deployed the Civil Engineering forces to war zones.

So Whorace (and anyone else), your sob story falls on sympathetic deaf ears. Those people that married a military member had to be a special person to hold together a marriage that the military will try it's best (not deliberately of course) to break. Having children is doubly hard.
But I only hold respect for those that made it work.

None at all for those that expected life to be handed to them on a platter.

Wence you're a programmer, great I'm willing to bet you didnt get the job though without a degree, which is a CIVILIAN document, not a military one. As for 155 howitzers, you know damn well I was referring more to people in technical fields such as AMP's Network Technicians, etc, so quit acting retarded. You know as well as I do that if you were an AMP in the Air Force for 20 years and get out you still have to get certified in the civil sector to get a job, and you know as well as I do most employers wont hire a network technician without either a degree, A+ cert, MCSE, CCNA, or sometimes all of the above regardless how many years military experience they may have.

Yes the military places itself ahead of your family, sad necessity. Thats not the point and you know it

As for the comment (I believe by Xanai) of having kids without any skills? Xanai, what? Someone should have to make a choice between serving their country or having a family at all? Dude, if thats how you feel then frankly fuck you, sideways, with a tank. Most military people bust their asses for your freedom and mine alike, if anyone in this country has earned the right to have a family its them. Calling it a poor decision is tasteless at best and at worst spitting on the sacrifices they make for you every day. Most of them HAVE skills, the problem is that civilian employers more often than not won't (in some cases such as for AMP's by federal law can't) recognize those skills unless they get "additional" civilian training and/or certification. MOST technical fields would be making enough to support a family of 5 easily in civilian life but in the military its hard because they get paid so much less than what they are worth. It's fuckers with an attitude like that who spit on my father when he came back from Vietnam both times.

[Wenceslas]

Wence you're a programmer, great I'm willing to bet you didnt get the job though without a degree, which is a CIVILIAN document, not a military one.

Then you lose your bet.

Oh yes, most CE's must get certified to work in civilian practice - I have opinions as to why this is so.

As far as a network technician - I cannot say that is or is not true.
I do know that someone having 20 years in a business and can show the credentials needed to the bean counters in HR - you won't need that degree.

MCSE certs are not worth the $1500/year to bother with anymore.
Any idiot can work in MS without proper credentials - Microsoft proves that every time they release crap like Vista.

So No, I don't agree completely with your assessment.
Doesn't mean I am right.

[Direblade]

Wence Networking IS my field, its what I'm in school for, so especially in this case I know whereof I speak. Its what I did at my last job, and hopefully will be doing again in a couple weeks. I can tell you, without MCSE, A+, CCNA or a degree, the MOST you will possibly get in a networking environent is Help Desk Technician which if you're lucky pays 15-17 an hour in this area, and HR doesnt give a rat fuck about experience on this one, they care what certs you have and for networking A+, CCNA, and MCSE are still pretty much the standard. you might POSSIBLY get by as a sys admin or network admin after 5 years on help desk IN THAT COMPANY plus whatever previous experience but no degree/certs, but ti will take you atleast that long to prove yourself enough to get a shot.

AS for AMP's you can look up FAA regs. doesnt matter if you did the same job on the same damn aircraft for 20 years in the AF or MC you cant do it as a civilian till you have the civilian cert. - which costs money.

[Parthin]

Dire says: Rule 34 - anything that exists, there is porn of it.
There is elf porn too, lol. Elf porn,lol.

[Whorace Powers]

So Whorace (and anyone else), your sob story falls on sympathetic deaf ears. Those people that married a military member had to be a special person to hold together a marriage that the military will try it's best (not deliberately of course) to break. Having children is doubly hard.
But I only hold respect for those that made it work.

I totally agree that military service can rip a family apart. When I was in the Navy, they basically told us that if we were married, we could expect that to be over with by the end of our first enlistment. Something like 70% of marriages involving a military spouse dissolve due to cheating, etc...

So I fully agree, those that make it work have my total respect....

What does this have to do with any of our discussion though? It is good rhetoric, but it doesnt really impact the debate. I mean yes military service is hard, it is flat out traumatizing to smaller children, but it still does not change two very important facts 1. service is strictly voluntary (except the draft of corse) and 2. getting married and having kids is also strictly voluntary.

Not trying to be an ass, but just saying, this is a rhetorical deviation from the debate.

[Whorace Powers]

As fr the mess hall, yes the soldier/airman/seaman himself can eat there.

DB, is this a new rule? When I was in the Navy, 1995 - 7, immediate family members could eat at the mess hall as well as the enlisted (i.e. wife/husband and kids) They got a little card that they had to show, and they had to go a specific mess hall on the base I was on, but they were fed free as well.

[Pressto]

Wence Networking IS my field, its what I'm in school for, so especially in this case I know whereof I speak. Its what I did at my last job, and hopefully will be doing again in a couple weeks. I can tell you, without MCSE, A+, CCNA or a degree, the MOST you will possibly get in a networking environent is Help Desk Technician which if you're lucky pays 15-17 an hour in this area, and HR doesnt give a rat fuck about experience on this one, they care what certs you have and for networking A+, CCNA, and MCSE are still pretty much the standard. you might POSSIBLY get by as a sys admin or network admin after 5 years on help desk IN THAT COMPANY plus whatever previous experience but no degree/certs, but ti will take you atleast that long to prove yourself enough to get a shot.

AS for AMP's you can look up FAA regs. doesnt matter if you did the same job on the same damn aircraft for 20 years in the AF or MC you cant do it as a civilian till you have the civilian cert. - which costs money.

Guess me getting 100k a year without any certifications in the Tech field means nothing to you. (Actually I have a few but never put in a resume or talked about them to get a job) Let me tell you what REALLY matters in the tech field from someone with experience, not just school in it.

The Certificians will get you in the door to most large organization or when working as a consultant. The reason I say that is because you have to get past HR which looks for them to get in the door. Once you have been in the field 3-4+ years certs are not that important. We use to tell the people with MCSE certs great you passed the test now throw most of that out the door and let us show you how it is really done.

Also with the arguement no one cares about military background and they need civilian certs I can also say for a fact that is wrong. Would I rather employ a fresh nosed kid who just got a piece of paper or someone who has a background in the field with years of experience. Again based on all the employers I have worked with we will take background over those cert papers any day.

[Direblade]

As fr the mess hall, yes the soldier/airman/seaman himself can eat there.

DB, is this a new rule? When I was in the Navy, 1995 - 7, immediate family members could eat at the mess hall as well as the enlisted (i.e. wife/husband and kids) They got a little card that they had to show, and they had to go a specific mess hall on the base I was on, but they were fed free as well.

When I was in the army, 1992 1993 (before I tore the fuck outta my knee) the rule (atleast at my post) was that IF family members were eating there they had to be with the service member, since in the hypothetical presented the serviceman is separated from his family (usually overseas) this wouldnt be possible.

[Whorace Powers]

Whorace,

I believe that it was after or during the Vietnam Conflict that Congress passed a law limiting the president from deploying troops overseas for more than 60 days with out the approval of Congress.

I need to dig around some in the Pol Sci testbooks I have to find the specific acts/bills etc that I am talking about.

I know not long after WWII congress essentially gave full power to the Pres to deploy troops as he will essentially so long as the engagement is projected to be shorter than a specific amount of time, or require the mobilization of a certain percentage of troops or less. Then Vietnam came along and congress took away some of those abilities.

However, regardless of all of this, the fact of the matter, and the meat of my comment to DB earlier in this thread was simply that our congress has effectively done away with having to truely involve itself in US Military actions.
Yes they approve budgets that allow for more supplies and troops to go to a given 3rd world dirthole to fight the battle of neverending BS, but tey are a bunch of cowards to spineless to just declare an open war and truely support and back our troops. It's to be expected of our government, every official needs plausable deniability so they can worm out of sticky situations when enterprising investigative journalists or citizens call them out on it.
So my comment was aimed at the idea of this thread of DB running for Pres, I was attempting to get him to make a commitment to push congress into taking more responability for sending us/our troops into anything, conflict, operation, war...whatever, and not have 1 person with so much leway ;p

[Whorace Powers]

When I was in the army, 1992 1993 (before I tore the fuck outta my knee) the rule (atleast at my post) was that IF family members were eating there they had to be with the service member, since in the hypothetical presented the serviceman is separated from his family (usually overseas) this wouldnt be possible.

I see.

I do not know if it is different now, since I am not active duty or anything anymore, but on Naval bases US and Abroad, immediate family members just needed thier meal card IDs. I know minors had to be accompanied by a parent, but I know (back then) they did not have to be accompanied by thier serviceman/woman family member. I have had instances where I was in the galley eatting a a buddies wife and kids come in and sit with some of us and eat while her husband was on duty.

I can not speak for other branches though, only what I experienced in the Navy, though I thought things like that were standardized across all branches. But thngs could also just be different now as well.

[Direblade]

Also keep in mind I was single so I cant speak for wife/kids, only other family members. I never SAW much of wives/kids in the mess hall though

[Whorace Powers]

Quote:
Where is this hundred thousand dollars free education????? I am in school right now and only get my GI Bill. I get three years worth of it. I am going to get $50,000 for college, and have half of it used now. I know the military does offer some outrageous amounts of money for college to some, but the vast majority of everyone doesn't get that money.

I've heard a hundred thousand from ex-military I met in college. Fifty thousand is still damned good money towards your education. I didn't join the military, so I had to pay for my education myself.

I think* I can explain this one Heff.

You get about 50k for school through the GI Bill if you do all 4 years, etc. You can get an additional 20k if you sign for a high tech field ( its what I got anyway for going ET SatCom tech in the Navy. I believe for some fields you can also get an additional 20 - 40k for certain "add ons" to your enlistment.

Additionally, some states, not all, match GI BIll contributions or better. In TN for example, when I went to UT for my zoological degree I was able to use my GI BIll, but the state of TN allowed me to go to school half price so long as I go to any of the "approved" schools. So my tuition in TN for the Univ. of Tenn was 2200 a sem instead of 4500 a semester roughly, and I got my GI on top of that.

When I went back to school here recently, I still got to keep the half off tuition in my pre med program, but I had used my GI already =/

Some states though, atleast back in 1997 matches your GI Bill if you got out on honorable release after a full term. So a 50k GI Bill would be 100k for that soldier. AND many times recruiters can offer additional GI Bill amounts during heavy recruiting needs for specific fields etc.

[Wendiyenie]

Look at what you get:

1) Your normal salary, doubled if in a hazardous duty

You do NOT get your salary doubled. You get Hazardous Duty pay. Which is $250 extra.
http://www.armytimes.com/benefits/pay/m ... _2007hbml/

And Family Seperation Allowance at $100 bucks a month, IF you are married.

Wendiyenie wrote:

I lived in a skimpy 2 bedroom one bath apartment, not really worth the $600 I paid per month. I got $500 for rent. So, no, I really didn't get free room and board.


Did you need that second bedroom? Could you have found a cheaper place to live?

Could you eat at the cafeteria at your base? If yes, how much did it cost you per meal to eat there?

Yes I did need a second bedroom being I was married and had a child.
That was the cheapest place I could find to live. Next highest was $680/month.

I could have eaten in the Mess Hall, but I would have had to driven 15 miles to post from my house to do it. My daughter and husband would have had to eat there ONLY when I was there and it would have costed aprrox $15 bucks.

I applaud you for paying for your own college. I do not know of your situation, but I know numerous people who have had thier college paid for by thier employers, scholarships etc. It is hard for me to believe you paid every single penny of your own education.

Wence, I made it through the military without a divorce

Heff, I do agree that military personel are not being compensated poorly. I actually loved being there, mainly because of sence of duty, which few have. I am sorry if I misunderstood some of what you said, it just seemed to me what you were saying was negative towards the military. I know intention does not always equal perception. For misunderstanding, I am sorry.

Let me ask this one last question. How much is your Freedom worth to you? I know right now we are not in imminent danger, but, what if we had China on our doorsteps with tanks and planes and the like? How much would you pay for these guys to be gone?

[Wenceslas]

Wence, I made it through the military without a divorce Very Happy

It is possible just not really easy =-)

[Xanai]

Let me ask this one last question. How much is your Freedom worth to you? I know right now we are not in imminent danger, but, what if we had China on our doorsteps with tanks and planes and the like? How much would you pay for these guys to be gone?

It's worth my life.

With that being said there's absolutely no difference between an avowed socialist nation with brutal repression tactics controlling me and an illegitimate government, with brutal repression tactics, who has no Supreme legal standard making laws based on their whims; in fact the first may be preferable because at least they're honest enough to tell you what they're gonna do and what they believe. The only difference between the Chinese and Americans is that the Chinese have epicanthic folds, yellow skin, straight hair folicles and are shorter than most Americans.

So, do I want to be ruled by little, yellow people or big, white people - that's really the only choice we have anymore...

Xanai

[heffling]

Also keep in mind I was single so I cant speak for wife/kids, only other family members. I never SAW much of wives/kids in the mess hall though

Wouldn't it also be true to say that most enlisted are unmarried or seperated from their family by distance?

[Wenceslas]

With that being said there's absolutely no difference between an avowed socialist nation with brutal repression tactics controlling me and an illegitimate government, with brutal repression tactics, who has no Supreme legal standard making laws based on their whims; in fact the first may be preferable because at least they're honest enough to tell you what they're gonna do and what they believe. The only difference between the Chinese and Americans is that the Chinese have epicanthic folds, yellow skin, straight hair folicles and are shorter than most Americans.

Wow.

I tell you what: Emigrate to China and see if you enjoy living there.
Be sure and tell them what you tell us while you live there. Espouse the illigitamacy of the Chinese government and we'll see if you are ABLE to return in 10 years.

So, do I want to be ruled by little, yellow people or big, white people - that's really the only choice we have anymore...

Xanai, what you stated is so damned ignorant it's fucking amazing.

[heffling]

Heff, I do agree that military personel are not being compensated poorly. I actually loved being there, mainly because of sence of duty, which few have. I am sorry if I misunderstood some of what you said, it just seemed to me what you were saying was negative towards the military. I know intention does not always equal perception. For misunderstanding, I am sorry.

Wendy, I'm not trying to be negative to those in the military at all. I have alot of respect for them. The military is, however, a very well compensating employer. I need the same credentials to work at McDonalds as I do to enlist (well, not really true, as you need to be in good physical shape). On straight pay, you don't earn alot more than you would at McD's, but you get huge benifits. Professional Training, living expenses, health care, educational expenses all add up to alot. You also get certain tax breaks and reduced restrictions with other goverment agencies (like if you marry abroad and want to bring your wife back, it's easier if you're in the military).

Dire said more pay for the military. My preference is same pay, better use of the money we have. Honestly, if you live frugally, you can come out of the military very well off.

Let me ask this one last question. How much is your Freedom worth to you? I know right now we are not in imminent danger, but, what if we had China on our doorsteps with tanks and planes and the like? How much would you pay for these guys to be gone?

I'm an engineer, so I always look at things as designed for the worst case scenario. The military, I feel, is already designed for this. What happens, however, is that it's been so long since we've been involved in a real war, that most people see the military as a route to a free education, a chance to see the world, etc. They don't think about the fact that they could be the ones getting shot at.

And if China invades the US, I will be immediately joining the military, because at that point, we will need every able bodied person we can get.

[heffling]

Fuck the rich is hardly a socialist statement. The fact is that you're wrong MOST of the rich in this country were born into wealth, their ancestors may have "earned" it, but they temselves have not. Furter more often than not they have gotten rich, or ricer as the case may be, by screwing over the average citizen (witness the gas companies who when their cost rises 20 cents raise their price 50 cents). If they gave a fat damn about the coutry I might not feel that way, but lets face it, they send jobs outside of tis country, lowering their costs, but then turn around and raise prices. They without exception shelter the vast majority of their money to avoid paying a fair share of taxes, and few of them actually do much to try and give back to their country or communities.

Who pays your salary? I'm betting it's the rich guy who owns your company, and not the guy sitting at the desk next to you. If you raise the taxes against the rich, you will do exactly what England did, and chase away all of those people to other countries.

On top of that, many tax breaks are incentives to encourage spending or investing of capital, rather than letting it sit and do nothing. Having more money flowing in the economy is better. Shelter's who's sole purpose is to insure that money is not taxed should be done away with, and should have those who run and use them charged with theft from the goverment. But many tax breaks are legitimate in nature.

And I gotta say, gas is a great example of the rich getting richer in the US. I mean, we only import what, like 80% or more of our petroleum? Obviously that's because of our rich, and not a dependence on foreign powers...

[Direblade]

Wence Networking IS my field, its what I'm in school for, so especially in this case I know whereof I speak. Its what I did at my last job, and hopefully will be doing again in a couple weeks. I can tell you, without MCSE, A+, CCNA or a degree, the MOST you will possibly get in a networking environent is Help Desk Technician which if you're lucky pays 15-17 an hour in this area, and HR doesnt give a rat fuck about experience on this one, they care what certs you have and for networking A+, CCNA, and MCSE are still pretty much the standard. you might POSSIBLY get by as a sys admin or network admin after 5 years on help desk IN THAT COMPANY plus whatever previous experience but no degree/certs, but ti will take you atleast that long to prove yourself enough to get a shot.

AS for AMP's you can look up FAA regs. doesnt matter if you did the same job on the same damn aircraft for 20 years in the AF or MC you cant do it as a civilian till you have the civilian cert. - which costs money.

Guess me getting 100k a year without any certifications in the Tech field means nothing to you. (Actually I have a few but never put in a resume or talked about them to get a job) Let me tell you what REALLY matters in the tech field from someone with experience, not just school in it.

The Certificians will get you in the door to most large organization or when working as a consultant. The reason I say that is because you have to get past HR which looks for them to get in the door. Once you have been in the field 3-4+ years certs are not that important. We use to tell the people with MCSE certs great you passed the test now throw most of that out the door and let us show you how it is really done.

Also with the arguement no one cares about military background and they need civilian certs I can also say for a fact that is wrong. Would I rather employ a fresh nosed kid who just got a piece of paper or someone who has a background in the field with years of experience. Again based on all the employers I have worked with we will take background over those cert papers any day.

Why is it then Pressto, that EVERY Sys Admin position, Network Admin position, Network Security position that I have seen on Career Builder, Monster, Craigslist, etc REQUIRES MCSE, CCNA, and often a degree as well (and note I'm not just looking in DFW I also have search agents set up for parts of Florida, Georgia, and several other areas in New England)? Granted, yes there are ways around that such as work help desk for a few months or years if you are "under qualified" and get promoted from within, granted if there are no applicants who meet those qualifications they MIGHT forward a "less qualified" individual to the hiring manager, but most companies I have worked with the first person you talk to is HR, who doesn't give a shit about what you know, only what paper you have.